Author Topic: Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode  (Read 3370 times)

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2007, 01:01:00 PM »
I never said it should be classified as a fighter....

I dont know that it truely belongs as a "fighter" but its got roughly the same air to air capability as the Mossie and the 110 do

That led to this entire little drama during which I was repeatedly told to go back to the kiddie table and let the adults discuss stuff. If you look at the film I did exactly what I said I could do to a well flown mossie.

Now the reality is that the A-20 was not a bomber or a fighter. It was classified an an Attack aircraft (hence the "A" vs the "B"). It would be roughly comparable to the more modern vietnam era A-6 intruder.

My "argument" has never been that the A-20 is a fighter, simply that it can be flown as one with a reasonable level of success. The single most telling quote regarding air combat (IMO) is from a Korea era marine pilot.

"There are two kinds of planes, fighters and targets"

At heart I'm a fighter pilot, I was set to fly harriers for the Marines when my vision went south all of a sudden. History is full of "overmatched" planes doing remarkably well, from the french flown hawk 75, russian P-39, finish buffalo to the polish Bi-planes and beyond.

The fight is in the pilot, not the plane. All m00t found out is that he's a bit more plane/situation dependent then he thought he was.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2007, 01:52:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
I never said it should be classified as a fighter....


I was responding to the initial post; "Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode".
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2007, 02:06:50 PM »
Just watched the film ... yes you won ... "owned" him ... I don't think so.

At about 1+ minute into the film he could have turned you into shredded wheat ... but he took a small pop shot instead.

That tells me that he probably was thinking that the fight was not "fair" and decided to not go nuclear on you, because he did have the upperhand. The rest of the fight, from my POV shows the same. There was no pwnage there. Was nice of Bat to give a "textual" helping hand when you "lost him".

The A20 is very deadly in capable hands, but what I think comes into play with most who take on a A20 is the mindset ... "EASY KILL" ... and 99% of the time it is ... so they are taken by surprise with the likes of a Cobia or you, and find themselves in deep doo doo before they can recover.

Whenever I see an A20 taking a "fighting" stance or involved in a "fighting" scenario, I immediately think ... COBIA !!! ... and my whole attitude and thought process changes. I will now think ... COBIA / SNAPHOOK.

I have fought Cobia many times ... FM2 or F6F vs A20 ... and to the best of my recollection, I have yet to lose a true 1 v 1 ... why ? ... cause I fight him like it was a Zeke. Not that the plane handles like a Zeke ... it's because "he" is deadly ... I don't worry about the plane at all.

Everytime I have beaten Cobia ... I thank my lucky stars that he was in an A20 and not in a P-38 and admire the fact that he plows right in with that flying boat and does what he does and never gets upset after a loss.

A20 ... very capable/deadly ... a "fighter" ... it is not.
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2007, 02:56:24 PM »
Freakin wall of text.
Owned?  Now I just don't care about your freakin plane and your bogus claims.. You're getting the same treatment as every other medium stick that gives me that crap... I'll own you if you've got the bad luck to get in my way from now on buddy.
You can figure out for sure how the A20 really matches up to mossies, 110s and 38s with some other guinea pig.

Bat:
" If you have to avoid 'playing it fair' to beat humble then you are not proving anything aside from 'initial advantage will win most fights'"  No ****.. that was the intent with not killing the fight at the first opportunity I had.
I could've upped with 50% fuel, light ammo, etc, but instead I busted my bellybutton to keep it fair.  To show what everyone but Humble knows, that the A20 just doesn't hold a candle to fighters if the odds are even.  
"Derogatory" - Wrong.. Maybe my mannerisms aren't quite anglosaxon anymore, but there was nothing condescending about anything I posted till after a few of Humble's insisting accusations that I, or AKAK or anyone else is talking down to him.  I'd repeated that and it fell on deaf ears.  You keep playing the nice guy conciliating card, but that's bogus too.  
If you were fair you'd let Humble know the A20 isn't what he claims it to be.  If you and humble were as unconcerned with ego as you pretended, you'd never have mentionned it.. It never occured to me till Humble brought it up.

Waste of time.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2007, 03:02:08 PM »
slap I have no way to know what his true intent was or if he fired just the .303's. From what I heard in the fight and on the film it sounds like he fired the 20mm. No question he had a shot window at 1 min or that he had control of the fight from the beginning. It is not possible to avoid giving the con a shot in a scissors. I also cant think of any other option I had to win the fight. Had he wanted to reset he didnt need to follow me thru the scissors...

Watching from his end all I saw was what I expected (and what I saw from my end during the fight). A very uncollected plane...which isnt Moots fault at all, the mossie simply doesnt handle as well as the A-20 in that particular situation....so yes he had a couple of brief shot opportunities but no easy tracking shot. Which is exactly what I said earlier in the thread. The mossy would win if it landed a FQ or snapshot otherwise the A-20 would win if it got down and dirty.

He wasnt able to deny the overshoot or saddle up on the A-20. Bats text comments didnt really register at the time (I'm looking out the window:))...and my view is fixed on right where he appears. The A-20 has alot of blind area and its not uncommon for me to lose a con there. I simply flew best guess and reaquired him. You'll note that he lost me as well and didnt protect himself well at all.

If you go back in thru this thread the fight played out exactly as I predicted it would with the A-20 flying a very 38 like defense and winning a slow climbing high AoA fight from a defensive position.

This is not my style at all and was not my intent since I dont normally engage in pissing matches here or on 200.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #65 on: December 15, 2007, 03:15:23 PM »
LoL


Moot your right, I'm just an average stick in a crappy plane that flew your sorry arnold into the ground:D

I wasnt hard to find last time and I wont be next time either. You caught me low slow and on the deck and couldnt close the deal and you think you'll do better up high;).

The mossie (or 110) will always control that fight. And yes its easy to stand off and B&Z the A-20 to death. And yes the A-20 will always start on the defensive and be at risk to a snapshot....but if you get down and dirty with me you better bring a better game then what you showed me there.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #66 on: December 15, 2007, 03:19:56 PM »
Flew my bellybutton into the ground?  How? Telekinesis?
Couldn't close the deal?  I didn't have a shot?  I didn't pass up on the killshots I had?  I didn't keep the odds even so you could have the room to strut your A20 stuff?

Man you're really full of ****. It's going to feel good not to have any reason to hold back and pack that **** even denser than it is now..  I'm sorry I ever thought it'd be worthwhile slowing down for you.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2007, 03:48:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
Total bs.
And like I said I've flown the A20 plenty.  You looking up my stats for these last tours as base for your arguments is like Titanic shrugging off the tip of the iceberg as nothing to worry about.

If that's what it takes to get those wooden glasses off your eyes, bring your A20 anytime. I'll take either a mossie or 110 and turn it to scrap metal in under 3 revolutions.. Nevermind a P38.

"The A20 easily outhandles the 110, mossie and 38 at high AoA".  Wow. :lol



Didnt quite happen like that did it.

I saw one shot opportunity at 1 min...you fired and you tickled me with a few .303's. I dont know if you fired your 20mm or not (feel free to post a film if you have it) but given the fact you had alt and E that wouldnt have proven much.

What your basically saying is that you had alt & E on me and took it easy after forcing me down. So why not stay on my 6? As you said the mossie will easily hang with the A-20 which is just a big lumbering target?

We can both agree that you were 400 out on my 6 and 90 seconds later I had total control of the fight. Seperate from the question of IF you actually passed on a shot the end result is I flew circles around you in a plane you admit is inferior to the mossie across the board. You got no shot after the 1st that I saw....

You called me out on 200 and came looking for me, shrugged off any real fair "gee lets see what happens" type of a fight and then made excuses when you lost. I'm fighting a "superior" plane with a good pilot, a great gun package in a superior position that bores in for a kill shot and I'm supposed to read your mind:) Kiss my grits...

I'll let the film speak for itself....

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline E25280

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3475
      • http://125thspartanforums.com
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2007, 03:51:15 PM »
Jeesh . . . just take it to the DA already.  :rolleyes:









Then make sure to post film.  ;)
Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
SWtarget in current incarnation
Captain and Communications Officer~125th Spartans

"Proudly drawing fire so that my brothers may pass unharmed."

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #69 on: December 16, 2007, 12:07:21 AM »
None of what I'll say wasn't already said, but since you can't get it thru your head:
It wasn't ever about winning.  I know I can outfly you, I know the mossie outflies the A20, I know coming into a fight and winning it outright won't go anywhere in terms of seeing whether the A20 does all you say it does.. cause thats what it was about since the beginning, you saying you can get the A20 to do some stuff fighters can't keep up with. "P38-lite" etc.

Now if you want to take it to the DA and for me to come over without lots of fuel etc, no excuses (as I came that time but you'd be hard pressed to report as such) or anything.. then sure, I'll wipe the floor..  
I was just curious and what I found was what I predicted.  

I'm not about to hunt you down but if I do find your A20, I won't be leaving margins to see what you can do.. Anyone but you already knows it'll get snuffed quick when it is about winning.  So you'll see it for yourself.. I won't be reporting back here with film for bragging rights like you're so starved for apparently.

The A20's nothing compared to fighters, it's not a P38 lite, it's not something anyone will be surprised by anytime they've seen it fly once or twice to gauge its capabilities.

And tell ya what... I'll give up AH if you can beat me in the DA, like E25280 says.  No mercy this time.. 3 or 5 rounds, a matter of 15min and you'll get those bragging rights for your A20 bomber, as well as proving I'm just a thread hijacker.. right?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 12:13:31 AM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline B@tfinkV

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5751
moot
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2007, 08:59:34 AM »
i have read all your replys, and i tend to agree with you on some aspects,  i still agree with humble on others.

i feel i have a friendship with both of you and i really dont want to damage either of thos friendships so i am out of this thread.


S!
 400 yrds on my tail, right where i want you... [/size]

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2007, 10:01:32 AM »
Ill tell ya what bat... if you do me a favor, i'll return it in kind, whatever price you name..

Check your PMs.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2007, 10:12:32 AM »
Moot you continue to miss the point entirely....

I've never said that I can beat you or anyone else in the A-20 (or in any plane). What I have said is that I can fight the A-20 competatively vs any plane or pilot and doent feel that the A-20 limits my ability to win a fight. I've said that I've never lost a "1 on 1" in the MA to a mossie or 110 in the A-20 yet. I've used the "P-38 lite" as an attempt to decribe how I feel about the FM and the way I try and fly the plane...nothing more.

For some reason you feel the need to blow this into a bigger thing then it is. When you came on 200 initially I told you I'd love to fly a few. To the best of my knowledge the DA doent have the A-20 enabled (I've never found it) {is there a bomber part?}. My problem right now is that for me this is a "fun issue" and your making it something else entirely. My whole initial purpose in flying the A-20 is because it's a challenge...more so then the mossie or 110 by a pretty big margin. As I fooled with it I found that an awful lot of the stuff I taught here as a trainer was applicable in the A-20. Sound basic fundemental flying will allow the A-20 to compete with any of the fighters in the game. As Bat said I've posted a bunch of stuff that shows the A-20 (win and lose) vs a variety or planes and pilots. Primarily as an aid to guys that are at the beginning of the learning curve and view the game as a fight between two planes, not two pilots.

I fly the Mossie also (I landed two 8 kill sorties yesterday), no question its an easier plane to fly, and given that its inherently faster, climbs better and has 4 x 20mm in the nose I've got no doubt you or any other guy can grab the high ground (DA or MA) and dictate the fight. Slap said it best, you treat the A-20 like a zeke. In a theoretical world the mossie should never lose a fight to the A-20 if it starts from nuetral ground...

Going back to our fight in the MA....that wasnt an even fight. You didnt ask if it was me, you didnt give me an "even start". I've had all kind of guys look me up in the MA in the A-20, and have had numerous great fights...win or lose. I've also had numerous "aces" lose to me in "there ride" (1 on 1) and then come hunt me down in a spit16 or la-7 (sometimes they lost that one also:))...

You had or didnt have a shot, if you did you missed it, or only fired .303's so be it. I hit 3 or 4 planes yesterday in the mossie that didnt go down. I hit an A-20 4 times and it was flying. I hit a B-25 4 times, popped a pony right in the engine, cockpit and took the radiator, engine oil and didnt even get the kill when another guy finished him. Landing a hit wouldnt have ended that fight for sure since you did not have a tracking shot.

The simple reality is this, we are apparently completely different people. Your "daz skillz" and I just like to have fun. If it had been me in the A-20 over you i'd have buzzed over the mossie asked if it was you and dragged us off a bit waited for you to get to speed at 5k and gone to a guns cold merge with a 2k max extension (if you agreed)...

Like I said I'm not to hard to find, I'm in the DA often enough and you had no problem finding me in the MA. My question in all this is what your actually trying to prove? Your earlier comments made it sound like you could easily outfly the A-20 (this is plane to plane not you vs me) in stall, semi stall and T&B end game situations. I think that the film shows the A-20 is more capable then you gave it credit for regardless of the outcome of the particular fight.

When it was over I saluted you on 200 for a fun well flown fight that could have gone either way. Why make it more then that?

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2007, 10:23:46 AM »
I don't give a rat's ass.... I honestly just don't care. I didn't even read that post above because it's just more of the same. Toot the A20 all you like.  You're wrong.  Doesn't matter anyway.. I know I sound jaded, because I am, but I know you're wrong and I just don't care about proving it anymore.  I don't know why I ever cared, it's just pointless to argue it. I never really cared all that much about it, but I'm just a stubborn sort who can get carried away defending a point no matter how minor just for the sake of integrity; but now I just don't give a ****.


And if that was you just now with the shade account in the DA.. You're not just childish and stupid, but also a total creep.. get help.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 10:28:01 AM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode
« Reply #74 on: December 16, 2007, 10:47:36 AM »
Excuse me???

Why would you think I'd need a shade account?

Obviously this is a big issue for you for some reason. I'm all for friendly rivalry but you've gone over the edge a bit on this. I logged of and went to feed my horses.

Like I said i'm pretty easy to find, beyond that I'll leave the rest of this drama locked up in your head where it belongs...

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson