190 Series Vs. P38 Series

[Widewing]

Originally posted by trigger2
not climb TO it, if you think about it, you don't need to be right next to the p38 to shoot it, it's a huge plane, if it's within d800 i can take out the wings easy, d1000, with a touch of luck, I can take off some stuff. If you pull up and bring it over the top after the merge into a p38, your going to be doing what it did, and you'll be in about d400, well in range of guns.

You should pay attention to what Urchin said...

Tell ya what, you take your 190A-8 (or any other 190) and I'll take a P-38J or L. We'll meet at A100 on the TA map. We'll take off in opposite directions. When we fly out of icon range, we both reverse into a cold merge. Guns hot thereafter.

Bring a stop watch, 'cause it won't last 60 seconds. That assumes you don't extend 5 miles...

I'll be in the TA Wednesday and Thursday evenings next week, after 9 PM Eastern.

My regards,

Widewing

[killnu]

60 seconds?  That may be fun to try.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by killnu
60 seconds?  That may be fun to try.

It is fun. It's especially fun when dueling in dissimilar planes.

"How the heck did you get turned around so quick?!", is the usual reaction.

Something I learned years ago watching films from Drex and Leviathn.... That, and lots of practice and several thousand duels, fighting the best in the game.

Co-E the 190 is toast against the P-38. Dueling from icon range means that the 190 will never have an E advantage on the merge.

Another fun dueling set-up is the "cage match". This means taking off from the same field, but you must remain inside the confines of the field. It's best fought on a mid or large size field. Before killshooter was turned on in the DA, this was a great way to learn how to stall fight. Now, you're confined to the TA, which means a certain amount of honesty is required. IE: admitting when you've been clobbered. When we do this in the TA, any hit to the cockpit glass is considered a killing shot. This works well when we have our 3v1 clinics. Film shows that most guys can be depended upon to be honest.

My regards,

Widewing

[Virage]

When I first saw this topic I was firmly in the 38 camp.  I still am for all the reasons mentioned,  but I think in the hands of a good pilot the 190d should be able to get an E advantage at the merge.   Once above the 38 the 190 has to B&Z hoping to land a good snapshot.  

Tux and I tried it in the DA a week ago.  I (190) got on top and could of stayed above all day.  After awhile I attempted to lag turn him and had to level out and run once he started beating me around the circle.  1 fight doesn't tell the tale, but I feel the question is this: can the 190 win a zoom  contest at the merge without getting becoming a Hispano Kabob?  I think so.  At a cold merge, the 190 has  ~ 50 mph advantage and holds speed very well.  Get on top without being shot, force the 38 to drop his nose first, then maintain alt advantage, never turning.  

In this situation I would give the 190 the edge.  Achieving an E advantage and forcing the other plane to be defensive is a win in my book.  Even if  the 38 dodges your snapshots all day he has lost the initiative.

IMO any other attempt to beat the 38 will result in a burning crater or an early dinner back at base after you ran like a cat on fire.  Thats why I am still in the 38 camp for most fights/pilots.

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Virage
At a cold merge, the 190 has  ~ 50 mph advantage and holds speed very well.  Get on top without being shot, force the 38 to drop his nose first, then maintain alt advantage, never turning.

Co-E the P38 will be able to out climb the 190. Especially in a vertical climb.

[clerick]

Originally posted by Raptor
Co-E the P38 will be able to out climb the 190. Especially in a vertical climb.

This is true.  What is misleading about E is that Kinetic energy takes mass AND velocity into account.  So to be truely "co-e" the 190 would have to be moving a lot faster then the 38 to make up for the extra mass the 38 carries.

According to the AHII Plane data:
P-38 J
8,981 Kg
approx. 627 Kph (WEP) @ 17,500ft

190D
4,300 Kg
approx. 692Kph (WEP) @ 17,500ft

The speeds are approximate but i think most would agree they are close.

With that data we can calculate that a 38J at full speed has 136 MJ (mega joules) of Kinetic Energy plus 469 MJ potential energy.

The 190D would have 81.3 MJ kinetic and 225 MJ potential energies.

This means that a 190 at WEP going for a clean merge with a 38 at WEP is already at a 40% energy disadvantage, and thats only if we don't take into account the potential energy.  Total energy disadvantage is nearly 50%

I might be missing something here but it would seem that just looking at energy the 190 has a LOT of ground to make up it it wants to get "above" the 38 energy-wise.  To be co-e in kinetic energy the 190 would have to be moving at about 564 mph.

[Citabria]

2 20mm + 2 30mm vs big target means 190a8 only has to look at a p38 for it to go kablooie.

beyond that the p38 has superior performance in all areas except dive where the 38 turns into a brick at 400 the 190 can go beyond 500.

at least the top speed advantage saves the 190s vs the p38s.

the real problem for 190s is the la7. the la7 out climbs/dive/turns/speeds the 190a's by a wide margin and the d9 below 10k.


btw I hate la7s and everyone who flies them is a lamer.

[TUXC]

From my fights with Vater/Virage in the DA (him in 190, me in 38) it seems that the 190 needs a speed or alt advantage at the merge if it's going to win, but if it's flown by a competent pilot who sticks to E-fighting it has a chance. I didn't film the fights since we were just messing around, but it was basically take off from the 6k fields in the DA, head to the middle of the island, and have at it. For the first fight, I was in the 38 and did not use WEP until after the merge, so Vater could have had anywhere from a 15 to a 50mph speed advantage in the 190D. I was a little too agressive on the first reversal, which resulted in me having to dodge some B&Z's, but managed to get Vater to abandon that strategy out of boredom when he couldn't kill me that way. Once he committed to a closer fight and started trying for angles he lost control of the fight and was forced to extend and re-merge.

Some things to note are that Vater is a better stick than I am and that I made a mistake after the initial merge, giving him the initiative for the next minute or two. If he wasn't playing on a laptop with a dialup connection he may have been able to get a killing shot in, but as it was he was only able to take off one of my ailerons. If Vater had committed to an angles fight right away instead of using energy tactics, he probably would have either been forced to extend or attempt an overshoot since the 38 will make up angles no problem using flaps once the fight gets slower.

To sum it up:
-coE the 190 should probably run once the fight starts going south
-with a speed advantage and a good pilot the 190D can attempt to gain the upper hand by conserving E

[Guppy35]

So basically after all this we can agree that a 190D9 with alt and E can control when he engages a 38 and that a 190D9 pilot co alt and co-E should put the nose down and run because he can out dive a 38?

Could we then agree that those flying 190D9s are more likely to be 'survivalist" AH pilots and the guys who fly the 38s are guys who tend to get in there and mix it up with less regard for "living"?

I'm not suggesting that either is better or worse as it's the player's dime he's flying on.

Only speaking for myself and my 38G, I know part of the fun for me is to try and defeat the guys with the alt and the E.  But that's just me as I'm not concerned with my 'survival' in the MA.

I know I flew my 38 differently in the DGS scenario as "living" mattered.  I can't bring myself to think it does in the MA.  Guess I'm not patient enough in the MA world

[TUXC]

Originally posted by Guppy35

Could we then agree that those flying 190D9s are more likely to be 'survivalist" AH pilots and the guys who fly the 38s are guys who tend to get in there and mix it up with less regard for "living"?

Unless of course they have a wingman.

[moot]

Originally posted by Guppy35
that a 190D9 pilot co alt and co-E should put the nose down and run because he can out dive a 38?

Could we then agree that those flying 190D9s are more likely to be 'survivalist" AH pilots and the guys who fly the 38s are guys who tend to get in there and mix it up with less regard for "living"?

No.. There's enough possibility for one (or maybe two with lots of luck) kill shot that it's worth fighting even for only one or two reverses.

[killnu]

Ive seen enough 38L's flying into the ground to negate the 80th's desire for the fight.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by killnu
Ive seen enough 38L's flying into the ground to negate the 80th's desire for the fight.

Must have been a 38G if it was augering

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Virage
I think in the hands of a good pilot the 190d should be able to get an E advantage at the merge.

It can't be done if both pilots know their ships.  The P-38 has a vastly better climb rate than the FW-190 under all circumstances.  If the FW-190 tries to extend and then climb, the P-38 can simply climb and it'll still end up above the FW-190.  All the FW-190 can do in the way of fighting is extend, turn around, and try to go for a head-on.  If the P-38 flier dodges the head-on, this cycle will continue until the FW-190 runs out of fuel or else runs home.

So, once more, the FW-190 stands no chance against the P-38 unless the FW-190 has a large advantage.  Even then, the P-38 will turn the tables if the engagement drags on long enough.  In which case, again, the FW-190's only option is to run.

In brief, the P-38 is absolutely superior to the FW-190 as a dogfighter.  The FW-190 is only superior to the P-38 as a "cherry picker."

[Tac]

The dora only has massive engine power over the 38 (as its only true 'overwhelming' advantage) and higher speed retention (38 cant dive, level off and retain high speed as well as the dora does).


The reason why you see the 190d9 having better stats is for two simple reasons:

-D9 is not used for ground attack roles. P-38 is.. routinely.
-D9 is much more survivable as it requires a lot less thinking and skill from the pilot during a fight.

The 2nd point is perhaps the reason why most that face the 190d9 end up thinking its either an uber airplane or the pilot in it is very good.. when in fact its neither.

You see, its the same issue as the La7. The D9's engine and its massive WEP boost allows the pilot to compensate for the majority of his mistakes mighty quickly. The 38 instead, relies on its mix of abilities and benefits to make up for these mistakes (most imply shooting down the opponent rather than running away from it).

The mistake that d9 pilots are seen doing over...and over... and over again is entering a turn fight against a plane that is a much better turner than the D9 is. The D9 allows these mistakes to be corrected simply by diving with WEP on or climbing away after some separation is gained with WEP on. WEP WEP WEP. Without it the D9 cannot fix the mistakes of its pilots. Show me a D9 that is out of WEP and i'll show you a plane that wont survive the next dogfight it gets into.

This WEP however, does not make the D9 'better' than the P38. The 38 is a plane of versatility, a bag of many tricks and capabilities... where the dora has but the WEP trick and no more.

I remember a fight I had with Urchin a long time ago.. he was in his Dora (he was a 190/Ta-152 freak back then) and i was in my 38L. We went at it for a LONG time going from I believe it was 32k down to 12k before he broke off. As he was at d1.1k and doing his WEP climb away from me I shot him down.

Mighty piss match in chat and in forums after a bit.. he couldn't believe I could've shot him down from such range. All I could say was ... well.... neither could out-fly the other one but one of us had to win... and I won by using the one little thing my lil' 38 has that his vulcherbird didnt: flat trajectory, long range, nose quad 50 cal guns. I spent a good amount of ammo in short bursts (i didnt use tracers) as he did his lazy climb looking for the correct lead on the gun..when I saw the first hit sprite I emptied the 50 cal guns on him. 1400 rounds even at that long range the hits snapped his wing out.

As a 38 I could NOT run away from him. If I had he wouldve just turned his dora around and kept climbing while catching up with me at the same time then starting another round of that dogfight with me at a disadvantage. If i had dived his dora would've cought me in a worse situation. If i had simply followed him level keeping speed he wouldve gained alt on me anyway. This kind of things is what makes the D9 and the 38 different birds on their own right. a 38 pilot must be very aggressive and know his airplane.. the D9 pilot relies too much on his WEP to fix his flying problems.

Thankfully, Urchin has seen the light and has been known to fly the 38 from time to time