They going to pull Arnold's Republican card...

[crockett]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Big part of the problem isnt just the insurance companies deciding what treatments are given. Which yes is a problem.
But also in just getting the insurance companies to actually pay up on treatment they agreed to pay for in the first place and dont.

I knew a nun who used to run the finance dept at a hospital.
And one of her biggest complaints was in just getting the insurace companies to just pay up on money they actually owed.

Seems agreeing to pay for treament ius one thing.
them actually sending the money to pay for the treament they agree to pay for is an entirely different matter.
And I know just for that hospital alone ten years ago the debt owed to it by insurance companies ran in the double digit millions.

Yes that's the entire point I'm making. We don't have a bad health care system. Hell the Us has some of the best health care in the world. The problem is half the population in this country can't afford it.

The reason is because the "free market" system has been extreemly abused and the govt refuses to step in and protect the citizens of this country from the abuse.

Do I say we must have free health care paid for by Uncle Sam? Hell it would be nice but I know it likely will never happen. However I do expect "AFFORADABLE" health care. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Again why should I have to pay double the amount for the exact same medication that a person in Canada can buy for half the price?

Would you not be a little annoyed if you had to pay 100k for a car here in the US that was built in this country. Then turn around and find out that the Canadians could buy the same car for $50k?

Then you find out, the only reason for the price difference is because the company can "get away" with charging more here. Would that not upset you specially if all the other car makers did the same so they could control the market? Does that sound like the free market working the way it should?

[SIG220]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Exactly.  Arnold was  NEVER a republican.  However, compared to the communists of california, a left leaning moderate appears to be a Reactionary.

Hey, I was born and raised in California!

SIG 220

[SIG220]

Originally posted by crockett
BS..

Go price a drug in the US then go online and price it in Canada it's the same in Mexico as well. We get charged double and sometimes triple for the "EXACT" same medicines, the reason is because our govt won't stop the price gouging.

It costs so much because the pharmaceutical companies get away with ripping us all off. Why? because the lobbyist and these companies hold more power than the people of this country.

You are implying that all the millions of dollars the various drug companies give to their Washington lobbyists allows them to influence the Congress.

SIG 220

[crockett]

Originally posted by SIG220
You are implying that all the millions of dollars the various drug companies give to their Washington lobbyists allows them to influence the Congress.

SIG 220

No the millions of dollars that Washington lobbyist allows them to do good things and help mankind. They must just be there to make sure politicians work for the people and not big biz.

serious man I know I'm coming off as an bellybutton with this response.. but really WTH do you think they do? Buy everyone roses and sing Kumbaya around a fire holding hands?

It's not just Congress they buy all politicians, from the state level all the way to the top at Washington.

[LePaul]

I have all the compassion in the world for people who are in need.

I also believe people need to PLAN for their futures, be it medical emergencies or retirement.  

However, since we live in a "no consequences for bad choices" society, we the tax payers frequently are forced to be the buffer to those who simply feel it is "owed" to them.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by crockett

The reason is because the "free market" system has been extreemly abused and the govt refuses to step in and protect the citizens of this country from the abuse.

 

Man, you are way off base.... way off.  My wife and I are both health care professionals.  i'm going to now tell you why things are so expensive.  you might not like it, but here it is plain and simple:

Free riders that don't pay... do you think hospitals just throw up their hands and not collect?  They raise their prices to those who can pay and try to make up every penny they can.

Insurance compaines that pay a minimal amount for procedures:  Insurance companies are in business for profit so they drive the prices down at every opportunity. Often a patient can get screwed by this because if he/she has the means to pay, the health care providor will pursue them for the difference.

Malpracticve insurance:  the populace has become so litigious in their efforts to find someone to blame for their troubles/misfortune/ get rich quick that Dr's and facilities must pay exorbatent prices for adquate coverage.  What does this mean to you?   The Doc's services become more expensive since he/she isn't going to, and cannot be expected to, operate at a loss.

So you can put away your fantasy that the citizens of this country are being abused by the health care system. It's the other way around and citizens are reaping what they sow.

Fixing healthcare actually has some definitive answers.  Here's a couple:

Stop giving free health care to those who cannot pay and are not citizens of the US. Results: IMMEDIATELY good health care becomes available to EVERY single US citizen at a reasonable price.  IMMEDIATELY.

Reign in frivilous law suits and change the attitude of the country where it is felt that someone  has to pay for the misfortunes of others.  Remember when, sometimes, it was just a matter of bad luck and nobody got sued? Results: very quickly, as insurance rates drop, Docs will lower prices(competition will take care of this)  and the public will beneift accordingly.

You are 180 degrees off.  It's not the people of this country that need protection from the healthcare industry, it's the healthcare industry that needs protection from people.(illegal aliens, fraud, litigious parasites)

[crockett]

Originally posted by SteveBailey
Man, you are way off base.... way off.  My wife and I are both health care professionals.  i'm going to now tell you why things are so expensive.  you might not like it, but here it is plain and simple:

Free riders that don't pay... do you think hospitals just throw up their hands and not collect?  They raise their prices to those who can pay and try to make up every penny they can.

Insurance compaines that pay a minimal amount for procedures:  Insurance companies are in business for profit so they drive the prices down at every opportunity. Often a patient can get screwed by this because if he/she has the means to pay, the health care providor will pursue them for the difference.

Malpracticve insurance:  the populace has become so litigious in their efforts to find someone to blame for their troubles/misfortune/ get rich quick that Dr's and facilities must pay exorbatent prices for adquate coverage.  What does this mean to you?   The Doc's services become more expensive since he/she isn't going to, and cannot be expected to, operate at a loss.

So you can put away your fantasy that the citizens of this country are being abused by the health care system. It's the other way around and citizens are reaping what they sow.

Fixing healthcare actually has some definitive answers.  Here's a couple:

Stop giving free health care to those who cannot pay and are not citizens of the US. Results: IMMEDIATELY good health care becomes available to EVERY single US citizen at a reasonable price.  IMMEDIATELY.

Reign in frivilous law suits and change the attitude of the country where it is felt that someone  has to pay for the misfortunes of others.  Remember when, sometimes, it was just a matter of bad luck and nobody got sued? Results: very quickly, as insurance rates drop, Docs will lower prices(competition will take care of this)  and the public will beneift accordingly.

You are 180 degrees off.  It's not the people of this country that need protection from the healthcare industry, it's the healthcare industry that needs protection from people.(illegal aliens, fraud, litigious parasites)

I don't think I'm  180 degrees off on this. You say part of the reason things cost so much is because people don't pay. Why do you think most of them don't pay?

Do you not think it's possible that they can't afford it? This is the entire issue at hand. If health care was "AFFORDABLE" more people would be paying their bills.

Hell man I was in a car wreck a few years ago. I wasn't hurt but my neck was sore, so I went to the emergency room just to get checked out. In the end the bill was something like $800 dollars to sit there 4 hours, get 2 X-rays and talk to the Doctor for literally 5 mins. (I'm not BS on the 5 mins either).

So there I am lucky I had insurance that I had been paying 100+ a week for.. Even then I think I got stuck with somewhere around $150 that came out of my pocket.

So now lets go back to the cost of insurance I'm single and make decant money so I can afford to pay for insurance. Yet I run my own business so it cost me even more now.

Now what if it's some single mom whom has 2 kids? Remember not everyone can have jobs where they get full benefits and make 50 - 100k a year.

It's easy to sit there with a big head and say well "I" can afford insurance it's their fault if they can't. blahh blahh blahh blahh. Like some do on this forum. The point is the System is broken and needs to be fixed.

You talk about Malpractice insurance yea I know law suites are an issue and there are a lot of A holes whom look for their big lottery ticket. On the other hand we all know hospitals and doctors screw up.  So while I can agree there are a lot of frivolous law suites, there are also a lot of legit law suites.

At the end of the day, nothing will ever change until the govt gets involved and comes up with a plan where the average American citizen can afford health care.

[LePaul]

Well Crockett, for every story like yours, there's many like this one I'll tell you...

At one of my previous jobs, my coworkers were a married couple.  They had two kids.  Kid #2 they didnt know about til she had stomach pains and went to the ER.  45 minutes later, she gave birth.  (Pretty sad when you're that obesse and don't know you're knocked up, eh?)  Since she wasnt aware  she was pregnant, she drank and partied it up all during the pregnancy.  Result...a kid with severe autism.

Now over the years, they had the chance to sign up for insurance offered at work.  But they opted to blow their money on cars, recreational vehicles and found a way to have Social Security fund the kid's health woes.  They'd visit Doctr's and specialists, hit the ER when the kids was having severe issues....and never make any attempt to pay the bill.  Their car was their mailbox.  The backseat was overflowing with collection letters from the hospital, trying to recoup some of the fees.  Nope.

Its these kind of "well we deserve it' attitudes that are killing clinics and ERs across the country.

Someday, somehow, someone won't be afraid to be the "meany" and make these people contribute to their balances.

[SD67]

Australia has pretty good public health care and for the most part it's free.
For example:
The birth of our daughter.
Sarah was a high risk pregnancy, which meant pretty much constant monitoring of her B.P. and regular renal specialist appointments.
Many many trips to hospital with high B.P. scares and she spent the last week in hospital before an emergency C-section at 33 weeks followed by 3 weeks NICU care for Brianna and 2.5 weeks (in a private room) hospital for Sarah.
Total cost, nada, nothing, zip.
pretty darn good IMO.
Oh, and there are many pharmacutical companies that manufacture and develop in Oz.

[Hortlund]

Over here, health care is free for all.

Well, not exactly free, we have to pay ~30 € every time we go to see a doc. However, no one has to pay more than 100€ for medical expences in a year, so if you have gone three times to see a doc or whatever, you get a special card that gives you free health care for the rest of the year.

All of this is tax funded naturally, but I really dont have a problem with the government taking some of the tax money to fund that health care for all citizens. In fact, it is one of the things I would gladly pay tax for, and I hate taxes and socialism with the intensity of a detonating hydrogen bomb.

I know some people think that everyone should take care of themselves, and get their own insurances or whatever, but guess what, not all people are flawless. Some are alcoholics, some are insane, some are just plain careless and some are stupid. For whatever reason, some people fail to take care of themselves. And rather than having those people starve to death in the streets or dying in the gutter from pneumonia or whatever, I have no problem whatsoever with the government paying for their hospital care with my tax money. Thats like me giving them some of my money to pay for their hospital expences. To me, that seems like the Christian thing to do anyway.

[crockett]

LePaul of course there are people whom take advantage of things. There always will be but is that a reason that everyone else should get screwed?


SD67 and Hortlund both of your countries are obvious communist countries and have plans of world domination. All must fear govt controlled health care in the US, as it is a evil plan by FEMA to take control of this country. Oh and they plan to make Larz pay for all of it after they take his guns away.



btw how are the immigration policies, as I'm slowely giving up on this country.

[Tigeress]

This is about money and individual fiscal responsibility.

I doubt more than a few here, and elsewhere, are heartless to human suffering.

If, by some miracle, healthcare was without cost to anyone including costless to the government, the understandable arguments on this thread would not exist.

Obligatory charity does not set well with some; with others, it does.
Self-imposed and also unavoidable poverty has always existed and always will.
Jesus spoke of these things often.

It's a personal moral issue as to helping others... or not.

Think about it.. what person here,  in exchange for a tax refund, would walk into a hospital and unplug life support from a young child who is without insurance and carry them to the street and watch them die?

Personally, I can not abide human suffering because it makes me suffer, but that’s just me. I don’t presume to enforce these feelings on to others, thus Lazs, et al, and I never discuss fairness or unfairness of forced charity. He is entitled to his feelings too and I know he is not heartless.

It's about money and fairness.

TIGERESS

[Gh0stFT]

I pay for you, you pay for me, so everyone is on the safe side, whats the Problem ?
It works, at least here.

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
I pay for you, you pay for me, so everyone is on the safe side, whats the Problem ?
It works, at least here.

There was a time in your country when that was not true, dear, regardless of which country you are in.

Things changed at some point and probably amid these types of arguments.

The US is moving towards universal health care regardless of the arguments to the contrary.

TIGERESS

[lazs2]

crock-it.. nice rant but not answering my question.   You pay for the war in iraq because the government took your money to do it.. they at least have some basis tho.. the only function the government should be allowed is the defense of the country and enforcing peoples rights.   You have no right for me to pay for your health care.

the fact that our taxes are being wasted in other ways does not make it ok to steal even more.

As for your insurance..  I was talking in the grand "you"  how could I know what kind of insurance you have?   no matter what it is tho.. I should not have to pay for it.

I shouldn't have to pay for your car insurance either... you can get car insurance the same way you get health insurance.. you can get PL and PD only for a very cheap amount and take your chances.. spend the extra on whatever you want.. You can get more involved car insurance with a very high deductable and spend the money you save on your hobbies and...  take your chances..

Same for health insurance.. I know people paying less than $60 a month with a $4,000 deductible..  you could do that and use the rest of the money on your hobbies... like you do by not having perscriptiptions...  you could go full boat and no deductible.. it is up to you... don't blame me for your choices.

It is like blaming me if you have to pay a high deductible when you wreck your car.. you made your choice.

car insurance costs many here more than their health insurance.    

Again.. you have no right to take my money to pay for your insurance.  either get insurance or not... either get full coverage or some stripped down plan and enjoy your hobbies whatever they are.   I bet you have a computer and internet and a cell phone and cable tv and a number of things..   If they are more important than health insurance fine... your choice.. if not.. get the health insurance.

in any case the choice is yours but you have no right to ask me to subsidize your lifestyle.   It is immoral.

lazs