something from Dogfights

[DarkglamJG52]

What 109 flow Mark Hanna?. The spanish built 109 aka Buchon (109 G2 airframe + Rolls-Royce Merlin 500-45 ) = death trap and very poor performance vs late german 109s.

[Yeager]

krusty has fallen off the deep end

its a game krusty.......a game

[Anaxogoras]

What's missing from this conversation is deep skepticism toward first-person reports of aircraft performance, nearly all of which is anecdotal.  This kind of stuff just isn't reliable; that follows from the nature of human psychology.  We are not infallable reporting machines, purely rational and free of bias... which goes double, triple, or even more when it's a war vet speaking about what happened 50-60 years ago.

Any kind of performance data must be garnered from someone who is trained to test and record that kind of data, under controlled conditions.

As for the feel of an aircraft, no data can reflect it, and that's where pilot experience is valuable.

[Yeager]

just a reminder: you are not a world war two fighter pilot.  you are not killing people or shooting down airplanes.  You are playing a computer game.

[John Curnutte]

I have pulled this off in a 51 D and it does work  , but you need high speed and be very hard and fast on your stick , except I use left rudder . You fall like a stone and you can pull out anytime you want to . i do have witnesses to this event . The only thing is its awfully hard on your joystick and you have to be fast when you do it . I did it on a guy in LWOrange once and even got a shot off as he passed on by . Try it out at about 10,000 AGL as fast as your pony goes . and have done it in a spitty too !!!
As Always a Nutte

[Krusty]

Bucky, keep the insults to yourself. Same for you, Yeager.

You claim you'd believe whatever an ex-pilot tells you. You already said that. That's a slippery slope and there's no defense when you start saying "except in this case" or "not when its this pilot" -- you either mean it or you don't. It's such a broad blanket statement that it borders on fanaticism to make it.

Aside from your asinine insults, Bucky, I've only been trying to get you to use your own god-given brain. Apparently it's atrophied, so I won't bother anymore. Al Qaeda was looking for people like you, FYI, they might have a job that requires you never question authority.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Viking
Mark Hanna flew the Hispano Aviacion Buchon, which is a 109G-2 with a Merlin bolted to the front. However Hanna's Buchon was modified to look like a 109E which ruined some of the plane's performance. It is interesting that Hanna says the Buchon rolls faster than the P-51. It is also interesting that he says the P-51 will be "safe" from the 109 if the p-51 keeps his speed up and refuse to fight... Clearly Hanna considers the 109 the hunter in such a match up. In any case ... Hanna's Film star Buchon can't hope to match the speeds of late mark 109G's and as such it is no surprise that he found it wanting in the speed department compared to the P-51. Truth be told the 109's always fell short in speed compared to contemporary P-51's ... not as much as Hanna's Buchon, but still...

Incorrect per the Buchon in this case... Hanna's piece was written about his experience flying a 109G-10... Read the article for the details.

My regards,

Widewing

[Saurdaukar]

Originally posted by Viking
There are pilots who have flown both the P-51 and the 109:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

Unpork the 109.  Thx.

[Bucky73]

Krusty...I guess me and my 17years of military service tell me to respect those who came before me. Not to bash them making "false accusations" such as yourself.

Believe me sir you DON'T have the right to question them without merit or group them in as whole just because of one instance which is in itself questionable.

People like you make me sick.

Move to France please:aok

[mars01]

OMG Krusty you are clueless, a snap roll, what is described in the original post and Dogfights, is an accelerated stall and spin along longitudinal axis while maintaining its general horizontal direction.  It has everything to do with the angle of attack and the angle the wing stalls at. Every airplane is capable of spinning as well as snap rolling.

Pulling back abruptly on the stick increases the wings angle of attack to the point where the wing stalls.

Kicking the rudder induces yaw which sends the plane spinning on the horizontal, torque and gyroscopic precession also contribute or negate the affect depending on which way your propeller is turning and what rudder you hit.

Pushing the stick forward unloads the airplane and reduces the drag from the elevator essentially accelerating the aircraft spin.

A snap roll is one of the basic Aerobatic maneuvers. If you watch any Aerobatic videos you will see many snap rolls. I am amazed at how few know this maneuver on here.

When a snap roll is judged in Aerobatic competition the judges look for the nose being displaced up or down ( up = positive snap, down = negative snap) before the roll is initiated. IF they don't see the nose displacement then they will zero the snap roll figure and claim all the pilot did was an aileron roll.

I have to admit the depiction of the snap roll in dogfights was just plain bad. What they portrayed graphically was nothing short of garbage and looked nothing like a snap roll.

[Yeager]

you be nice to Bucky and me, krusty.........you dont want this to get ugly pard......(pssst...bucky, move round behind him).

[Anaxogoras]

Move to France please

Hey, I thought we were friends with the French again!:p

[DaddyAck]

This thread is funny.   The show "Dogfights" might as well be war department propaganda films from the war.  I saw an episode where 2 p38s flew into a gaggle of 109s and after going engines dead killed one 109 then restarted his engines and proceeded to down 109 after 109.  Meanwhile the Germans apearently just flew around like docile little target drones.  I understand that people embelish their deeds in memory as most humas do (just try to recall your last fishing trip and tell me I'm wrong) but just think about it for a minute logically before you take the Propaganda....I mean "History" Channel (and yes with them more often than not they take the term history loosly) to be 100% gospel truth.  The show "Dogfights" in most of it's episodes makes the axis pilots look like nothing more than drones to be shot at, but hey its got to be tru right? the History Channel said so......

[Motherland]

Dogfights, based on veterans or not, also claimed that the P-47 had a better climb rate than the Bf. 109, which is just impossible. Id take anything with a grain of salt.
Also remember that Luftwaffe pilots, by the time the Americans arrived, were poorly experienced and may not have been able to push their 109's 'to the edge' like American pilots could their 51's and 47's, which could have made it seem like the 51 was a more capable plane in the horizontal than the 109.

[humble]

There are a couple of points to remember....

1) Air combat in WW2 was significantly different then what we have here. The average pilot on either side had minimal experience in actual combat with a majority on either side never actually registering strikes on an enemy plane let alone a kill.

2) The average 2 month AH vet has equal or better ACM skills then the average RL WW2 pilot did and more actual "combats". A very seasoned Ace may have had had 5 kills and 100 "combats in his entire tour (US side). If you read the post action report WW posted the P-51 ace in question had excellent SA and made 15+ passes while dodging an equal number in just recording his 1st two kills. His combat action took him from 28,000 to under 5k...he did not turn with a single 109 for any significant time at all or make more then a single pass on any target.

3) all combat type claims on all sides are generally supported by both gun cam footage and confirmation from a 3rd party. Although the action might be embellished to a degree it's historically correct from the persective of the side telling it (doesnt mean all claims are accurate).