Unperk the Spitfire Mk XIV

[BnZ]

The fact is that it is a tricky aircraft to use and paying points to try to learn it well is disuasive.  In addition people go out of their way to kill, or try to kill, perk planes, even cheap ones.  Yes, a skilled player in one is nigh untouchable, but the same is true of a skilled player in a Bf109K-4, La-7, Typhoon Mk Ib, Fw190D-9 and P-51D or B.

Add the P47 to this list

Okay, the arguement for unperking the Spit14 is that it does not cleanly whip the other Spits in dogfighting, so why have a perk price on it? But to understand why it absolutely must remain perked, you have to compare it something besides Spits.

See the planes in bold? Spit14 can run them down (okay, it might have to dive slightly for some of them) at medium to hi alts and just plainly whips them in maneuveribility. (You'll notice the LA7 is not highlighted. Perhaps it can turn well enough to challenge the Spit14 down low). The inexplicably unperked LA7, by being faster than everything and turning much better than any non-perk in its speed class, has already gone a long way towards rendering the other high-speed E fighters more or less obsolete below 8-10K (Where most of the fun is, of course) And you want to worsen the problem? For an average flyer to shoot down another average flyer in an engagment where one is slower and turns much worse is NOT tricky at all. And this is what unlimited Spit14s will be used for, not turning engagments with Spits 8 through 16, Niks, Hurris, etc.

 The unperked LA7s down low and unperked Spit14s up high could potentially make the Pony, 109, or 190 about as competitive, and thus as rare, as the P40 in late war.

[FrodeMk3]

Add the P47 to this list

Okay, the arguement for unperking the Spit14 is that it does not cleanly whip the other Spits in dogfighting, so why have a perk price on it? But to understand why it absolutely must remain perked, you have to compare it something besides Spits.

See the planes in bold? Spit14 can run them down (okay, it might have to dive slightly for some of them) at medium to hi alts and just plainly whips them in maneuveribility. (You'll notice the LA7 is not highlighted. Perhaps it can turn well enough to challenge the Spit14 down low). The inexplicably unperked LA7, by being faster than everything and turning much better than any non-perk in its speed class, has already gone a long way towards rendering the other high-speed E fighters more or less obsolete below 8-10K (Where most of the fun is, of course) And you want to worsen the problem? For an average flyer to shoot down another average flyer in an engagment where one is slower and turns much worse is NOT tricky at all. And this is what unlimited Spit14s will be used for, not turning engagments with Spits 8 through 16, Niks, Hurris, etc.

 The unperked LA7s down low and unperked Spit14s up high could potentially make the Pony, 109, or 190 about as competitive, and thus as rare, as the P40 in late war.

Unfortunately, I don't think this is alltogether true, on several points.

For one thing, Yes, the Jug should be included. Many a suprise is handed out by a good stick in a jug. But how can you not compare it to other spits' that aren't perked, that outperform it in AH's usual combat altitude environs? The Spit XIV beats it below 10k, no doubt about it. Taking a XIV into a slow rolling scissors, below 10k, against even the other planes on your list, is writing a check many pilots' can't cash.

Also: Below 10k, in actual combat, with full WEP and at about 8k, A XIV still won't catch a Dora, or a Pony, a LA, Yak, or quite a few of the others planes' in LW.

The LALA can be outturned by quite a few planes, even a P-47, or an F4U or F6F, if the pilot keeps' his head, and uses throttle and flaps. A KI-84 will or a N1K2 will eat a LALA in a turn fight. A Spit XVI will chew up LA's in a turn all day long, but a XIV seems' worse turning. At best, it turns' at the same rate as a LA flown by an inexperienced stick. It's handling is pretty good up high, I'll give it that; But when was the last time you upped from a base that was flashing under attack, and all the attackers' were over 24k? Everyone underestimates' planes like the 109K4; I've seen K4's turn with XVI's. I know for a fact that they have the ability to turn with a XIV, easily.

Unperked XIV's will be forced to fight at an unadvantageous altitude, just like the Pony, P-47N, Tempest, etc. simply because that's where the fight is. There is no incentive to fight up high, It takes too much time to get there, and you can't vulch from 20k, so you won't see those planes' up there.

On a side note, keeping the fights' in AH low, is what made planes that got beat by all these LW monsters' suddenly a contender again. Have you ever tried to fly a HurriIIC in a fight at 25k with a Pony? How about an A6M? I've seen P-40's hold their own, even triumph against the very planes that made it obsolete, because the altitude environ is more favorable to the slow turnfighter down low. Here's the best one yet: Take the LA-7, which is an undisputed monster below 10k, And try to engage a P-51D at 20k, without diving to a lower alt.

The XIV won't ruin the other LW planes if it's unperked, for sure. More likely, it will see a little more usage, by the curious, but not much more.

[wrongwayric]

Never see the LA7 perked in my opinion. You can make a case to perk almost every plane in the late war set and others can probably make a case not to perk them. If i remember correctly the spit14 was perked for the same reason people are calling for the spit16/la7 to be perked. To many people flying them, mostly unskilled at that. At the time the 14 came into the game the fights were mainly at higher alt's if i remember right, thus tons of people would grab a 14 zip up high and rule. This actually forced what we have now a lot of lower level fights, they got there uber ride at 20k plus, fine i'll bomb and fight at 6k. Kind of makes me think of the quote "for every action there is a reaction".

[DPQ5]

everybody gets tha perks

[Ack-Ack]

The inexplicably unperked LA7

There is nothing inexplicable as to why it's not perked.  There is no need to perk it, it does not unbalance the game play in any way other than in the incorrect perception of a few.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

If i remember correctly the spit14 was perked for the same reason people are calling for the spit16/la7 to be perked. To many people flying them, mostly unskilled at that.

You remember incorrectly.  Perks placed on planes have never been because they are "popular" rides and too many fly them. 


ack-ack

[EvlPrsn]

i can understand it being perked if fights regularly happened at alts over 20k, but they dont anymore, so it needn't be perked anymore.  lets un-perk it, and c what happens.  whats the worst that can happen?  1 tour has an imbalance of spit14s?  i doubt it.

[BnZ]

I think it might be reasonable for the perk price on the Spit14 to be slashed,  and made similar to the C-hog's price. I don't believe situation for the Spit14 warrants complete unperking, as it did for the TA-152, a plane whose only big advantage over much of anything is great performance at very high alts that are deserted in the MA.

There is nothing inexplicable as to why it's not perked.  There is no need to perk it, it does not unbalance the game play in any way other than in the incorrect perception of a few.


ack-ack

You need to explain just where I am incorrect Ack-Ack...of course, my assumption here is that the perk system should be based on head-to-head performance at typical MA alts, not numbers of X plane built in what month in 1945, how a plane would perform in the MA's empty stratosphere,  how (un)popular it is in the MA month to month, or how far you can go between gas stations.

The LA7 enjoys near absolute air-to-air superiority over the planes I highlighted, down in the weeds. If MA combat were evenly spread out from the deck to 30K that would be meaningless, but at least 80% of the combat is below 10K. And even if the fight begins higher, the LA7 can take the fight to its best performance band and/or disengage  by diving. I never said it was a magic plane that could dominate the best TnB planes in angles fighting, but then again it doesn't have to, with its speed. I think it outclasses too many LW planes too greatly at typical MA alts, and is only held back from being a bigger unbalancing factor by AHII's culture of contempt for the thing. This is a plane that basically translates to a slightly slower, but more maneuverable poor-man's Tempest at typical MA alts. The Tempest is the highest priced prop-driven perk ride in the game, so why would putting a small price around 5 points on the LA7 would be unreasonable?

Here is the argument that will inevitably be thrown out by someone. "Well, I can kill your average LA driver in the weeds driving any plane you pick. It can be done, so there!, you miserable pudknocker."

--I say, so what? I have killed the darn things in a freakin' A5. But killing an LA in a co-alt co-e fight down low in a Pony, 190, late 109, or Jug requires some fairly large, no, HUGE, mistakes on their part. If we hold a given plane to be no good because there are many inexperienced people flying them, then the Spitfires are hands down the worst planes in the game. Obviously, this argument doesn't work.

And next, someone will say "Well, SOMETHING has to be the fastest."

--Obviously. But let us look at five other late-war low alt-speedsters....

190D9-The second fastest non-perked plane at sea level. Good climb, Good guns, amazing roll. Also, the absolute WORST turning fighter in the game,  except for the A8 and F8. That is what I call a balanced trade-a plethora of strengths paid for by one glaring weakness. Is out-run, outclimbed, out-turned, and out-accelerated by the LA7 below 8K.

109K4-The fastest non perk from 5K to 25K, which in the MA, might as well be saying it's the fastest from 5K to outer space. Climbs like a monkey on speed.  Can turn some, but not really great. Probably the strongest plane among these five. The fact that it is dive-limited, has some truly terrible views, and a truly difficult elephant gun in the nose mitigate against perking it. A gifted K4 flyer give an LA7 driver a rough time, but the LA7, with its better turning, better dive, and competitive performance, remains the easier plane to win with in this sort of duel.

P-51D/B-Its advantages over a FW190D9 basically boil down to "It can turn signifigantly better than a 190D9". But it doesn't beat much else outside the 190s in a slow fight. Great views (in the case of the P51D), zoom climb, a fairly high top speed, and not much else, are what it has going for it. Of the four most popular planes (Spit, LA7, Nik, P-51), I consider this to be the only one whose popularity is more due to sentiment than any attribute of the plane itself. Hooray for sentiment. But it is out everythinged by LA7s at non-nosebleed alts.

P-47 Is actually kind of slow at MA alts, except the N, which is kind of fast for 5 minutes. Has an unreasonably large number of .50 cals. It climbs like a monkey who thought about going up a tree, but then smoked a joint and decided to lie around the house all day, listening to BOC and eating microwave burritos. Most non-bnz kills in a jug come from forcing overshoots from a disadvantaged position, which should tell us something. Is potentially dangerous in a low maneuvering fight because of the exceptional sticks flying it as a labor of love against those who show it no respect. Once again, hooray for sentiment. Against the LA7, P-47 has pretty much the same disadvantages as the P-51, except that the LA7s might at least think twice before HOing the Jug.

Typhoon-Only really fast below 6K, not super fast and a poor climber much above this alt.  Nothing to write home about in the turn department either. Bad roll. LA7 runs it down and outmaneuvers it.

Another will say "There need to be SOMETHING for Russian enthusiasts to fly".

--I agree completely. The Russian plane set could use some expansion, no doubt. The P39 constitutes a step in this direction. However, the LA7's popularity I daresay does not stem from any great attachment of most AHII players to the history of Russia's airwar (They don't call 'em "Forgotten Battles" for nothing), but rather, its performance. For true afficianados, the equally iconic and quite effective Yak-9U and La5 would remain unperked. 

Finally, someone will say "I need something to run down a vulching Pony/CHog"

--If you are really concerned about vulchers, learn to shoot in an Ostwind/Field gun and keep your runway cleared of all comers. Still need to run him down, take a D9 or a K4, they are fast enough to do the job. Or pay your perks and take something REALLY fast, a Tempest/F4U4. Of course, I suspect what people who say this really want is something to not just to chase down that Runstang, but also out everything it in a dogfight. (If they took a Dora, they couldn't just turn and they'd have to think WAY too hard to win.) And they want a plane to do this with for FREE, on top of it all. (Of course, pilots being equal, the LA7 will rarely beat the afore-mentioned Hog 1v1, but thats okay, the real point is to slow the thing down and get it anchored to one spot for the rest of the horde to fall upon. We all know this to be true-but I digress.)

And praytell, what non-perk ride does one use to run down a vulching LA7? Hmmm......

[Ack-Ack]

You need to explain just where I am incorrect Ack-Ack...of course, my assumption here is that the perk system should be based on head-to-head performance at typical MA alts, not numbers of X plane built in what month in 1945, how a plane would perform in the MA's empty stratosphere,  how (un)popular it is in the MA month to month, or how far you can go between gas stations.


The LA7 enjoys near absolute air-to-air superiority over the planes I highlighted, down in the weeds. If MA combat were evenly spread out from the deck to 30K that would be meaningless, but at least 80% of the combat is below 10K. And even if the fight begins higher, the LA7 can take the fight to its best performance band and/or disengage  by diving. I never said it was a magic plane that could dominate the best TnB planes in angles fighting, but then again it doesn't have to, with its speed. I think it outclasses too many LW planes too greatly at typical MA alts, and is only held back from being a bigger unbalancing factor by AHII's culture of contempt for the thing. This is a plane that basically translates to a slightly slower, but more maneuverable poor-man's Tempest at typical MA alts. The Tempest is the highest priced prop-driven perk ride in the game, so why would putting a small price around 5 points on the LA7 would be unreasonable?

Planes on perked on the basis if they will unbalance the gameplay if they weren't restricted in some fashion.  This was the case with the C-Hog when it was first introduced and why it was perked.  That plane, unrestricted did cause a major inbalance.  However, while the La-7 is a dominate fighter at low altitudes and has the speed to get out of trouble and maneuvers well enough that it can get itself out of a scrape if caught, it does not in any way unbalances the game play.  For every strength you mentioned about the La-7, there are major weaknesses that go along with it.

When the Spitfire Mk XIV was released, I think HiTech had nightmares of the C-Hog all over again and perked it.  Frankly, I never thought it should have been perked in the first place, same with the Ta-152.  I don't think the Spitfire Mk XIV without perks would have a negative effect on the game play, I would like to see that revisited and hope the perks are removed.

Here is the argument that will inevitably be thrown out by someone. "Well, I can kill your average LA driver in the weeds driving any plane you pick. It can be done, so there!, you miserable pudknocker."

Frankly, I've always held the belief that those calling for planes like the La-7, P-51D, N1K2 or the FW190D-9 to be perked are those that don't quite yet have a full grasp of tactics.  Yes, they may know ACM but they don't know how to string along those maneuvers into tactics to fight against these planes.  They think that since they know ACM or at least have a grasp of it and still get beaten by the La-7, that it must be the La-7 that is uber.  So they blame the plane for their losses and which then reinforces the false belief that the La-7 needs to be perked since it's so uber that it dominates.  Basically, they want to perk what they can't fight.

--I say, so what? I have killed the darn things in a freakin' A5. But killing an LA in a co-alt co-e fight down low in a Pony, 190, late 109, or Jug requires some fairly large, no, HUGE, mistakes on their part. If we hold a given plane to be no good because there are many inexperienced people flying them, then the Spitfires are hands down the worst planes in the game. Obviously, this argument doesn't work.

If I encounter a La-7 that is at the same alt and energy on the deck, if the La-7 decides to try to turn fight or take the fight vertical, I'm going to rape the watermelon out of it like a bunch of priests at an alter boy party.

And praytell, what non-perk ride does one use to run down a vulching LA7? Hmmm......

Basically, you want it perked because you can't chase one down if it runs from you. 

You really haven't shown any valid reasons to why it needs to be perked, no one has.  Just do a search of the forums and you'll see the same arguments for perking it and yet no one has been able to show any evidence that the La-7 needs to be perked because it somehow unblances the game play.  I'm sure if you could find such evidence then HiTech and cronies would place a perk on it. 


ack-ack

[goober69]

Put any idiot in an F-16 and any expert in a SBD, and the expert in the SBD will get the kill.

what kind of idiot are you talking about man. like forest gump or homer simpson.

i think forest gump could still kill the experten from four or five miles away. as simple as getting lock and pressing a button.  lol     

that line just struck  me funny

[BnZ]

Frankly, I've always held the belief that those calling for planes like the La-7, P-51D, N1K2 or the FW190D-9 to be perked are those that don't quite yet have a full grasp of tactics.  Yes, they may know ACM but they don't know how to string along those maneuvers into tactics to fight against these planes.  They think that since they know ACM or at least have a grasp of it and still get beaten by the La-7, that it must be the La-7 that is uber.  So they blame the plane for their losses and which then reinforces the false belief that the La-7 needs to be perked since it's so uber that it dominates.  Basically, they want to perk what they can't fight.

I knew it. I mention that the LA7 is problematic because it holds all the advantages in dogfights at typical MA alts against several important families of LW aircraft, and the response is to imply I don't know what I'm doing. Insult is the last refuge of the out-argued, you know.

P-51, N1K2, and the Dora? The N1K is a slower angles fighter with a pedestrian climb rate, Dora is an energy fighter, and the P-51D falls in between. With these three, as with most planes in the arena, there is some sort of rough balancing and tradeoffs between speed and maneuveribility. This is not, however the case, when considering the 109G/K, 190, P-51, P-47, or Typhoon versus the LA7 at typical MA alts. And this is what I consider a problem.

If I encounter a La-7 that is at the same alt and energy on the deck, if the La-7 decides to try to turn fight or take the fight vertical, I'm going to rape the watermelon out of it like a bunch of priests at an alter boy party.

Uh yeah, okay, very colorful phraseology there. I'm quite sure you beat LA7s regularly in your P-38, those who who don't hit WEP and dive away anyway. This bit of self-promotion is irrelevant to my point though.

"Basically, you want it perked because you can't chase one down if it runs from you."

I want it perked because it completely outclasses too many aircraft. I never said it dominates ALL aircraft in ALL areas. Obviously, LA7s can't out-turn the Spits, Hurris,N1Ks, etc. But neither can a Tempest.

"Just do a search of the forums and you'll see the same arguments for perking it and yet no one has been able to show any evidence that the La-7 needs to be perked because it somehow unblances the game play.  I'm sure if you could find such evidence then HiTech and cronies would place a perk on it." 

Okay, I'll bite, what is the definition of "unbalancing the gameplay here"? Is it pure numbers of the aircraft used in the MA? If that is the case, then Spits are an "unbalancing" factor. Obviously going by numbers doesn't work. Or is it the performance of the fighter itself that matters? If this is the case, I'd consider a fighter that out-runs everything and out-maneuvers quite a few to be a prime candidate for perking.

[Bruv119]

getting a bit off topic here,

Un-perk the Spit 14!

Perk the Spit 21 

[EvlPrsn]

getting a bit off topic here,

Un-perk the Spit 14!

Perk the Spit 21 

i dont think we need another spit, but at least we have some1 on topic again  ^_^

[Ack-Ack]

Okay, I'll bite, what is the definition of "unbalancing the gameplay here"? Is it pure numbers of the aircraft used in the MA? If that is the case, then Spits are an "unbalancing" factor. Obviously going by numbers doesn't work. Or is it the performance of the fighter itself that matters? If this is the case, I'd consider a fighter that out-runs everything and out-maneuvers quite a few to be a prime candidate for perking.

Do a search for the C-Hog and look at the threads around the time AH went out of beta to live and you'll see what is meant by a plane unbalancing the game play.  Then is should be a little more clearer why the La-7 doesn't.  Again, I will also state my stance...the majority that want the La-7 perked do so because they either 1) don't know how to fight one or 2) want it perked because they can't catch one in a foot race.

so please, post any evidence, which you have failed to do by the way, that the La-7 so utterly and completely dominates the arenas that it unbalances the game play.


ack-ack

[BnZ]

Again, I will also state my stance...the majority that want the La-7 perked do so because they either 1) don't know how to fight one or 2) want it perked because they can't catch one in a foot race.

I don't know any sure and certain method of beating a plane that badly out-everythings the one I'm flying, in a fair fight against someone who knows what they are doing. I don't find this shaming to say because no one does. All this "LA7 is an easy kill" bravado comes from 1. LA7s attempting to turnfight planes that turn better, everything is an easy kill when doing that, or, 2. Encounters with noobs that don't even know how to merge or that the throttle can be moved backwards. But the day has long since passed when the LA7 was flown by the clueless only.

I've always felt like the C-Hog needs to be perked alot less than the LA7 does, although it should remain so to keep .50 Corsairs from falling into disuse. It is just an ordinary F4U with some big guns in the wings after all, and getting in front of a Hog's 6 .50s can send you back to the tower almost as quickly. Not to mention that the LA7's 3 centerline mounted cannons are pretty deadly themselves.

I will state my stance again: I want the thing perked because it more or less mauls the other non-perked LW speedsters at typical MA alts, and because its performance is only slightly inferior to the two most heavily perked prop planes in the game, and because doing so wouldn't really deprive enthusiasts of Russian planes, anymore than perking the C-Hog and 4-Hog deprives Corsair fans.