another campus shooting this week?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by moot
A very good teacher used to say when speaking about guns in the US: "The history of the USA has always been bloody", and "There's a bit of Romans in all of us ", meaning Americans.

Thats a good point. but one can look at humanity as a whole through out history.

We like to think we are more civilized  then we were 2,000 years ago but we are really not when you stop and think about it.

We're more tecnologically advanced then we were 2,000 years ago. But we are certainly no more civilized.

The Greeks and Romans for example, had societies every bit as complex as ours today.

The only real difference is the types of rocks we throw at each other.

[trax1]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Are you serious?  Any news organization that's having a slow day will get nail clippers, scissors or even knives on a plane just for ****s and giggles.  Just to show us how easy it is.

I never said that the security was 100% bullet proof, I don't think you can say that any security system is 100% safe.

Yes I'm sure if you really want you can get nail clippers or scissors on a plane, but do you really think that anyone is gonna be able to hijack an airplane with a pair of scissors?  No ofcourse not, anything that someone could use to hijack an airplane isn't gonna get through security, like bombs or guns.  Any of that other stuff that you can get through security isn't going to stop the passengers from rushing the hijackers and taking control back.

[trax1]

Originally posted by Trell
I like the ccw program and disagree with banning guns in school,  But pointing to sky marshals for the reasons people quit taking planes hostage is silly.


No one stopped stopped hijackings because it was in the best interest of the people onboard not to.  
The government for years pounded it into people’s heads that during hostage situations to do nothing.

9/11 Stopped that,  not ccws sky marshals or anything else.  
The proof is with United Airlines Flight 93  once they knew that it was not a hostage situation but a suicide bombing they took actions.
No one will ever take a plane in flight hostage again.
If the people in the planes knew that earlier none of that would have happened.

Look at the shoe bomber,  He was not stopped by sky marshals or people with guns,  He got his bellybutton kicked the old fashioned way.

Exactly, thank you.

[lazs2]

trax.. then please tell me how a person would skyjack a plane with security doors and armed pilots and sky marshals?

How would you do it?    How would you get around some guy with a gun who had orders to not let you have what you wanted no matter what?

I for sure do think that sky marshals and armed pilots made the difference.. how could it not?  how could someone get past that?   the other thing is that people realize that no airport nazi like security will save their lives.. people are now attacking the skyjackers.  they have nothing to lose.   How could that not be better if the people had better tools (guns) and the bad guys didn't know who?

Schools are even better.. and worse..  more people... less closed in..  easier for the bad guys to have powerful weapons so that is the bad thing..  nothing can be done about that..  

The good thing is that there is a bigger pool of 21 year old and older CCW holders to choose from.   more chance that there will be a good guy with a gun.. not some cop or security guard that everyone knows has a gun and can be avoided or taken out instantly... but good guys who blend in.  

No other solution that any normal person could stomach would work.

You guys are pretty much saying that DC is a gun free zone so that is why no one ever gets shot there.

I do not fear that my grand daughter would be shot by a CCW holder at school any more than she would get shot by one on the street.   I do fear that some nut will get a gun and go there to get his 15 minutes of fame.

I really really dislike people who prevent her from having this protection.   It is past being a debate or a disagreement.. it is to me.. that you are condoning the murder of innocents.

It makes you the problem in my opinion.  I believe the you are culpable.

lazs

[trax1]

As far as airplane hijackings go I really don't think that sky marshals are the thing thats stopping terrorist from trying to hijack another U.S airliner now since 9/11.  

I do think that the cockpit doors being reinforced was a good security measure that was put in place, but as far as the sky marshal goes, thats not whats preventing terrorist from trying to hijack another airliner.  As I've stated before, one of the things preventing them is the increased searches at the check points before entering the terminals, along with the bans they've put on certain items from going passed that point like knives.  It would be very hard for a hijacker to get any kind of weapon that he could use to take control of the plane and stop people on the plane from over powering him passed the check points.  I know news crews have gotten nail clippers & scissors passed the check points, but I'm talking about something that would stop the people on board the plane from getting it away from him and retaking the plane.

Another thing stopping them from trying it again is Americans are more prepared to try and stop it on board the plane then they were before 9/11, no one would just sit there in the plane and do nothing to retake control of plane.  

Do you honestly think that if we removed armed sky marshals from U.S airliners that terrorist would try to hijack another plane?

In a post 9/11 world people don't look at hijackings of airliners the same as they use to, they look at it more like a suicide bomber rather then your standard hijacking by terrorist looking to make some kind of political  statement or get their fellow terrorist freed from jails.

As for trying to say I'm responsible for murders that happen in schools, well thats just outragous.  I can't even vote, and I don't go out campaigning for anyone or any laws, so how can I even influence laws?  If your so worried about your grand daughter then take her out of school and have her home schooled, or get out there and help get laws passed that would get CCW's allowed in classrooms, don't just talk about it on here, get out in the community and do something.

[Elfie]

Lazs you are seriously wasting your time with trax.

[lazs2]

elfie.. I agree that I am wasting my time with trax but..  it is not about him or even me.   I hope that others are reading both of our posts and choosing the side that makes the most sense to them.. often..  I think that this may be the first time that many have ever really given it much thought.  I hope that I (and others) can present a decent case..   I don't feel that he has.

To say that sky marshals and armed pilots had no effect but the increased gestapo atmosphere and tactics did..is to not notice what is going on around you..  

every security measure is just one more thing that can be gotten around..they are blind policy and rules.. they don't think they don't react except after.

A thinking human with a firearm adapts.   with trax's methods you get a shoe bomber with matches being (hopefully) stopped by unarmed passengers and the next week...  maybe a new rule that all passengers have to wear airport issued slippers..  

No liquids next week.. week after.. no clothing allowed on board... cavity searches.. whatever.. more and more intrusive.

And none of this security can work on a scale like schools or malls.  

The only workable solution has been found in countries like israel who have had to deal with it.   Armed citizens work.

lazs

[Elfie]

elfie.. I agree that I am wasting my time with trax but.. it is not about him or even me. I hope that others are reading both of our posts and choosing the side that makes the most sense to them.. often.. I think that this may be the first time that many have ever really given it much thought. I hope that I (and others) can present a decent case.. I don't feel that he has.

I hadn't thought of it from that perspective, you are, of course, correct. Thanks.

[trax1]

You still haven't answered my question, do you think that if sky marshals were removed from airplanes that terrorist would attempt another hijacking?

Now I've never said that we don't need sky marshals, what I've said is that sky marshals aren't whats stopping terrorist from attempting another hijacking, what stopping it from ever being tried again is the people on the plane.

As I've stated several times now, people on board the aircraft would never just sit in their seats twiddling their thumbs saying "boy I hope we survive", no they are gonna act and try anything they can to retake control of the plane.  Now Elfie is the one who seems to think this is the case, and that the people on the plane would do nothing to try and stop the hijacking and retake the plane.  That has been my argument, the the passengers will do whatever it takes to retake the plane now in a post 9/11 world.

So lazs do you agree with Elfie that the passengers will do nothing to retake the plane?  And that the thought of the passengers trying to retake the plane isnt a detouant to the terrorist?

[Elfie]

I said that once in all the history of hijacking the passengers took the initiative and retook control of the airplane. Passengers also beat the crap out of the shoe bomber. So essentially that's twice in how many instances that passengers have done something?

History isn't proving your point in this case.

Now I've never said that we don't need sky marshals

Yes you are, with this:

what I've said is that sky marshals aren't whats stopping terrorist from attempting another hijacking

That's your view, you've stated it more than once.

If the Sky Marshals aren't what's stopping terrorists from attempting another hijacking then the logical conclusion is that they are not needed.

do you think that if sky marshals were removed from airplanes that terrorist would attempt another hijacking?

Imo, yes.

detouant

I have no idea what the heck that is, but I think you meant deterrent.

[trax1]

Well thank you grammar police for pointing that out, I'll try to make sure I never miss spell again, thank you.

First off, for you not to be able too see that what happen on 9/11 completely changed the way anyone would react to a hijacking is just unbelievable.  If you can't see whats changed in the way anyone would act during a hijacking now then your just not thinking hard enough about it.  Before 9/11 when a plane was hijacked no one on the plane would think they would use the plane as a weapon, and that if you just wait it out, then more then likely you'd make it out of the situation ok.  Now when a plane would get hijacked here in America the first thing the people on the plane would think about would be 9/11, and that if they didn't do something to overpower the hijackers then everyone on the plane is gonna die.  I'm sorry but I'd be willing to bet that your alone in thinking that if a plane was hijacked today that the passengers wouldn't act to stop the hijackers, I doubt that even lazs would agree with you on that one because I know that if lazs was on a plane getting hijacked he's be right there putting together a plan to retake it.

And I've said several times now and I guess I need to say it again "I've never said we don't need sky marshals", now you might try and try to put words in my mouth and say that I don't want sky marshals on planes.  Just because I don't think that sky marshals are the "only thing" thats stopping terrorist from trying to hijack a plane doesn't mean that I don't think they should be there, for one if they were on a plane that got hijacked, him and the passengers would have a lot better chance in taking the terrorist out, secondly alot of times you get people on planes that get drunk and become violent and a sky marshal would be able to help, so yes I don think the sky marshals do play a role in the security of U.S planes, I just don't think that the sky marshal, and the sky marshal alone is whats stopping another hijacking from happening.

Why would the terrorist want to hijack another plane, but not go through with it on the chance that the plane they pick would have a sky marshal on it?

I really think you'd be alone in the idea that shy marshals are the "only thing" stopping a terrorist group from trying to hijack a plane, like I said before, sky marshals have been flying on U.S planes for years.

[lazs2]

trax.. sorry I didn't answer your question directly as I thought I had answered it in context.

Yes I believe that sky marshals have stopped the skyjacking just as they did before the program was stopped..  a victim of it's own success.   yes.. that is what I said.. it was so successful that we got lax and dropped it.   and 911 happened.

the passengers are now reacting because the realize.. thanks to 911 and the world news of suicide bombers that they have nothing to lose but..  unarmed.. don't kid yourself..  a half dozen terrorists with ceramic knives could keep everyone down.. they will get weapons on no matter what the security.  

you answer me this.. do you think they can't get weapons on?   they do every day.. I know guys who have traveled with carbon fiber knives.. every bit as effective as steel and way more than a silly boxcutter.

Do I think that if they dropped the sky marshal program and the security door and armed pilots program we would have more skyjackings?  absolutely.   As I said.. it will never be possible to screen out all the bad guys or their weapons.   some bad guys weapons are their hands.. when they break a few necks lets see how brave unarmed passengers are.

schools and malls are even better.. at the mall shooting a CCW holder there said that he would have had his gun if not for the "gun free zone" rule...  he says that "as god is my witness.. I had a perfect shot at the shooter if I were carrying my gun."

The shooters don't know who the sheep is and who the CCW people are.. there is confusion and running and ducking for cover.. for him.. standing out in the open.. everyone is a threat... unless....

unless he knows it is a "gun free zone" his own personal clay pidgeon shoot for 10 minutes to an hour or so...  

I just can't put it more simply or clearly than that.   I can't believe you are still buying the party line and not using your head to look at the real facts..

CCW holders don't cause shootings they end em.. it matters not where.

lazs

[Elfie]

And I've said several times now and I guess I need to say it again "I've never said we don't need sky marshals", now you might try and try to put words in my mouth and say that I don't want sky marshals on planes.

What you've said is that the Sky Marshal's isn't what is stopping the terrorists from pulling off more hijackings. The logical conclusion to that is if they aren't stopping terrorists from hijacking airliners then they are not needed. So while you haven't come right out and said.....Sky Marshals aren't needed, you have most certainly implied it, repeatedly throughout this thread.

If/when another hijacking takes place by a group of terrorists, you can bet the farm that they will have a plan to keep the passengers under control. The actions of the passengers of flight 93 have been widely publicized and the terrorists aren't stupid. They will have some type of weapon that they smuggled through security. If the media can smuggle scissors through, terrorists can get weapons through.

Interesting factoid. El Al airlines has not been hijacked since 1968. El Al airlines has multiple Sky Marshals on every flight. Incidentally, they have not been hijacked since they put multiple Air Marshals on all flights.

schools and malls are even better.. at the mall shooting a CCW holder there said that he would have had his gun if not for the "gun free zone" rule... he says that "as god is my witness.. I had a perfect shot at the shooter if I were carrying my gun."

This is the incident that I wanted to provide links for, but I haven't been able to find them yet. There was an individual that had a perfect side profile shot, he could have taken down the shooter.....that is if the mall in Omaha hadn't been a gun free zone. He could have stopped the shooter in his tracks before the casualties got worse.

[lazs2]

The quote is in the latest issue of the Rifleman.. the NRA magazine...

In the Co. shootings several people, including the man who was shot in the arm while shouting to distract the shooter all said that they would have had easy, clear shots at the shooter.

the fact is.. the CCW holder is at a clear advantage in such situations.. he has a better chance... far better.. of shooting the killer than vice versa.

I shouldn't have to explain this as it should be obvious to anyone but a trax.

lazs

[trax1]

The reason El Al hasn't had a hijacking is because they are insane about there security, they put armed people on every flight, so I'll agree with that, if we put armed people on every flight yes you would have a record like El Al does.

The fact is we don't put armed people on every flight, I really doubt that terrorist wanting to hijack a plane would be stopped by the thought that the plane they pick might have a sky marshal on board.  These terrorist are more then willing to die for what they believe, so I'll ask you again, why would the terrorist be stopped by the thought of getting killed by a sky  marshal?  All they would need to do is do what they did on 9/11, hijack multiple planes at once, I highly doubt that every plane they pick would be one with a sky marshal.

Saying that if the terrorist have knives that thats gonna be enough to hold back the passengers, the 9/11 hijackers had knives and even fake bombs, that wasn't enough to stop the people of flight 93 from attacking them.  If your on a hijacked plane is any knife they have gonna make you just sit in your seat and do nothing while they ram it into another building?

And I guess I need to state this one more time for Elfie, no I never said that we should remove sky marshals, just because I think that sky marshals and sky marshals alone are stopping hijackers does that mean I think they don't play their role in our security.  To say that "well there not the only thing stopping terrorist lets get rid of them" is stupid.  I've said it before, I agree if there on a plane that gets hijack they are definitely going to help end it.  By that reasoning your saying we can get rid of every security measure except for the sky marshals.

And lazs when did I say we need to un-arm pilots and get ride of the security doors?