Author Topic: German Panther  (Read 17258 times)

Offline StugIII

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2008, 10:11:04 PM »
agreed, i unno about the perked if it was it would need to be low perk, the panzerIV and the panther and the tiger would be a great foe for the t-34 and sherman tanks and any other to come

Offline angelsandair

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2008, 10:36:59 AM »
Well, the Panther may be almost like the Tiger on the field. Especaily with the sloped armour and the High Velocity 75mm gun. They may need to add another tank to even things out or something.
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Offline John Hynds

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2008, 12:20:31 PM »
Add the Panther and this 1.
Achilles the British version of the M10 with 76mm gun. This pic is a newer retrofitted one that was in the Isreali army but the vehicle and gun are correct.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2008, 02:10:37 PM »
Yeah, the Panther had a different 75mm cannon than the earlier Panzers.  In fact, the Panther's high velocity 75mm could actually penetrate more armor than the Tiger's 88mm.

The Panther suffered the same problems as all the heavy German tanks- Suspension and transmission prone to wearing out quickly, underpowered engine, too few built.  But of course it had superior armor, optics, and firepower.

Panther had the L/70 75mm and the Panzer iv the L/48 75mm. Completely different guns. L/70 had  a one piece barrel and was much longer while the L/48 was a two piece barrel much shorter. The L/70 next to the revamped 88 was considered to be the best anti tank gun of the war. The transmission problems were worked out by the G model. Compared to other allied tanks the power to weight ratio was not close therefor  considered under powered. However this didn't make too much difference towards the end of the war since they were on the defensive and tactics had changed from attack which involves much more traveling to defense. Single or 2 tank defense groups were sent out to key defensive points to slow down the allied advance. All movement being at night because of allied air superiority.

Offline AquaShrimp

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2008, 04:32:18 AM »
I have to disagree with that statement.  Everyone says the Panther and Tiger's mobility problems were negated by the defensive position took at the end of the war.  Well the Germans weren't just in a static defensive position.  They were in a full retreat.  The tanks that couldn't cover the needed ground (up to a hundred miles a day) were abandoned and captured by Allies. 


Offline BigPlay

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2008, 11:33:48 AM »
Read  "Panzer Battles of Normandy of the 1st and 12th SS panzer divisions" no panzer ever traveled 100 miles to engage in France. They were always transported by train if they had any distance to cover. Also they didn't have the time it took to travel 100miles plus they were always no less than a days travel back to the repair station. Maybe in Russia but by the time the G model was out the Germans were in retreat mode.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2008, 12:09:37 PM »
The Panther had good frontal armour, but nothing special at the sides. With crews of equal quality, I'd put my money on the Shermans; with a 10:1 advantage, some could work around to the side while others were distracting the Panther at the front. I suspect that the actual exchange rate would be more like 3:1.

As a matter of interest, the Panther's 75mm gun was about as effective as the Sherman Firefly's 17 pdr - when the 17 pdr was using standard APCBC ammo. When the Firefly used APDS its penetration was much superior, although accuracy went down.


I would put money on the Shermans too in a close up fight but that didn't happen very often. The Panther's side armor didn't need to be special, it could knock out a Sherman at range without concern of return fire. Low velocity guns like on the Sherman lost most of their penetrating power at range and was not a threat. The German tank crews were more worried about anti tank guns than Brit or American tanks

Offline Lumpy

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2008, 03:36:08 PM »
Back from Easter vacation.

I see a lot of comments here that are all valid since we are talking about hypotheticals and what we'd "put out money on". However I must address AquaShrimp's "hundred miles a day" statement. The distance between Paris, France and Berlin, Germany is 544 miles. It took the western Allies from June 6th 1944 (D-Day) to May 8th 1945 (VE-Day) to cover that distance. 11 months ... and they didn't even reach Berlin. If they had they would have covered 1.6 miles per day.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2008, 03:50:32 PM by Lumpy »
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Offline Lumpy

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2008, 03:47:21 PM »
AS for the Panther vs. Sherman/T34 debate: I remember the tour guide at Berlin's war museum, an old Tiger commander (also saw him on Discovery Channel some time ago). He said, and I paraphrase: "The Tiger was a match for ten T34's ... The problem was there were always twelve of them!" :)

The Panther G had better frontal armor than the Tiger I, and the Panther's side armor was of the same thickness as the Sherman's frontal hull armor. My money is still on the Panthers.
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Offline John Hynds

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2008, 08:41:50 PM »
Yeah bet on the Panther. Saw a show on History or Discovery or Military channel about tank battles in France after D-Day. There was a British M4 commander on and was talking about how whole companies of Shermans were being killed before they could get close enough to be effective. Generally the tactic I heard mentioned the most was a platoon of Shermans occupying the attention of whatever tank(Panther or Tiger) while another platoon of Shermans would flank the enemy tank and kill it with close flank shots that would penetrate the side or rear armor. The only problem I can see with the German tanks was lack of supplies and air cover. More Panther and Tiger were killed from air attack than from tank on tank battles. Alot of German tanks in Normandy were either tracked, ran out of fuel, or simply broke down. In the Alsce pocket where they lost most of their tanks in France it was aerial bombing and running out of fuel.

Offline StugIII

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2008, 10:45:38 PM »
That a very good point, one thing that was a big problem for the Germans throughout the war was the fuel shortages. The Germans started to develop heavier tanks and  this guzzles fuel and drained even more on the problem, aerial bombing and mechanical problems were a very bad feature of early tanks for the Germans. One tactic i heard the Sherman's used was, there would be 4 Sherman's, on would get hit,  this would start the battle, a second would drive faster forward and get taken out, then the 3rd would go ahead and use the second as a shield and try to get a shot off. He would get killed, then the 4th one would have seen were the tiger (or panther was) drive around to out flank it, and because the turret takes a long time to move around the Sherman would get a shot off and kill the tiger or panther. I still believe that the panther would be a great addition to the game, good tankers would get 10's of kills in a sortie, the only problem is that, the panther would take of the firefly and the t-34 before they would get a good hit. (setting in open country). We need something to be the enemy to it, I do believe that the panther is a sure in to the game eventually, but we need to find something to match it.

Offline ssDruid

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2008, 08:54:17 AM »
This is a story on how devastating the Panther could be in the hands of a well trained tank commander and crew.

"SS-Oberscharfhrer Ernst Barkmann was one of the best tank commanders of the 2nd SS Panzer Division Das Reich during his service on the Eastern Front. Born on 25 August 1919, he joined the SS-Standarte Germania in 1936, and was wounded during the Polish campaign in 1939. After fighting during operation Barbarossa, he was transferred to the 2nd Panzer Regiment, 2nd Kompanie of the SS Panzer Division Das Reich. On 8 July, he scored his first kill on the Western front when a American M4 Sherman tank fell victim to his Panther's high velocity 75mm gun. On 12 July, three more Shermans were added to his score, but it was on 27 July that Barkmann earned his place as one of Germany's top panzer aces at an isolated crossroads on the St. Lo-Coutances road, which subsequently became known as "Barkmann Corner". His Panther parked in the shade of a large oak tree, Barkmann watched as a large American armored column of some 15 M4s and some other vehicles approached his position. Once they were well within range he opened fire, knocking out the first two lead Shermans. Behind them came a fuel tanker truck, and the panzer ace lost no time in taking out his choice target. As the wreckage of the Shermans and tanker truck blazed furiously, two more Shermans attempted to edge past the blockage. The first was quickly destroyed, though the second managed to get off a couple of shots. They were no match for the Panther's thick armor however, and this Sherman was also soon ablaze, as Barkmann's gunner picked off his targets. 
The Panther then came under attack from Allied fighter-bombers, wounding some crew members, blowing off a track and damaging the ventilation system. Under the cover of the air strike two more Shermans approached, only to find that Barkmann's tank had not suffered any serious damage and was still more than capable of fending off their challenge. The two Shermans were soon reduced to burning hulks. Barkmann managed to destroy one more Sherman before deciding discretion was the better part of valour and ordered his driver to reverse their way back out of danger. This in itself was no mean feat in a badly damaged Panther tank. Nine out of the 15 Shermans which had attacked his lone Panther were destroyed, together with other vehicles. In addition, despite fighter-bomber attacks and his tank being severely damaged, Barkmann managed to get his vehicle and crew back safely to German lines. He was decorated with the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross on 27 August for his achievements. 
 
Barkmann also fought in the Ardennes offensive in December 1944, and had an amazing escape near Manhay when his lone Panther encountered a large number of tanks of the US 2nd Armored Division. Despite being outnumbered Barkmann managed to knock out a few Sherman tanks. At one period in the battle his Panther collided with a Sherman and the two vehicles were locked together, the Panther's engine then cutting out. His driver managed to get the engine started and the Panther pulled itself away from the American tank and retreated with a blocked turret. He was followed by another Sherman, which was destroyed by Barkmann with a single shot. He then headed off the road and drove through snowy woods to reach his battalion."


Barkmann's fame is well known among the modern day panzer corps.  His feats, along with Michael Wittman and Otto Carius, are legendary.  They were men who were well trained and took advantage of every opportunity on the battlefield.

Offline Lumpy

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2008, 09:59:49 AM »
What a spawn camper!  :mad:  :lol
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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2008, 11:07:26 AM »
Everyone says the Panther and Tiger's mobility problems were negated by the defensive position took at the end of the war.

Well, Panther had better power to weight ratio than M4 and was also faster. Governor equipped Panthers had about same power to weight ratio and it still outran M4...

Offline snowey

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Re: German Panther
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2008, 03:34:01 PM »
Another vehicle we need is the German Panther. Yes it has the same size gun as the panzer but its armor is thicker and was sloped(atleast what ive seen and read about).It just looks like a very solid tank to me and i think it would be awsome to have on AH.

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the 75 was the same size but it was better and was about equile to an 88 it was a little less
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