Arena caps are...

[Zazen13]

HiTech used a good example with Warbirds and what happened to it after he left.  You really can't get a better example of what happens in an online game where you allow the player base to make most of the game design and balance decisions.

ack-ack

I think you misunderstood my post. I am not saying let players make gameplay balance and design decisions. I am saying change the design so that gameplay balance is naturally achieved by the players without artificial coercion.

For a general example, if you want to decrease player density while maintaining freedom of choice and community cohesion, don't amputate half the players and toss them into a separate isolated environment. Instead create interesting and diversely compelling strategic objectives that intice them to focus on multiple regions simultaneously within a single unified playing environment.

[Warspawn]

Instead create interesting and diversely compelling strategic objectives that intice them to focus on multiple regions simultaneously within a single unified playing environment.

One of the best replies.  Ever.  QFT.

[Guppy35]

I Love Zazen!...Can I question the basic premis that an unbalanced game is unhealthy????
Churchill didn't call up Hitler and ask for a fair fight....
<S> 999000

Triple 9's, that's a silly comment.  This isn't a war, it's a game.

If you really believe that, are you willing to be a Val pilot flying of Rabaul in 44, totally outnumbered and out gunned, because in wartime the pilots had no choice as to the role they had or the plane they flew?  Are you willing to go where you are told, and not be able to design or choose your own mission?  I kinda think your money might go back on your pocket if you couldn't fly the plane you like into a situation you like.

If you want it part of the way you gotta take it all the way.

But again, since this isn't war, but a game using cartoon airplanes modeled on WW2 planes, you have to include some balance to let everyone have some fun.

[Baumer]

Zazen,

Can you give a specific example of how you'd change a map, or the game, to accomplish your following statement?

Instead create interesting and diversely compelling strategic objectives that [entice] them to focus on multiple regions simultaneously within a single unified playing environment.

[Zazen13]

Zazen,

Can you give a specific example of how you'd change a map, or the game, to accomplish your following statement?

I can give you several of my favorites, I've suggested some of these before.

-Give factories meaning, make their effects fairly profound, more diverse and wide-ranging, but relatively short-term so a given player during a typical 2-3 hour play session can experience the breadth of how it plays out, from its defense to destruction, to rejuvenation for a continuity of experience.

-Give base sizes meaning as follows, tweaking map layouts to create focal points and logical distribution of field types as necessary:

Large bases (w/ 3 vehicle hangers) = any aircraft can takeoff including 4 engine bombers.
Medium bases (w/ 2 vehicle hangers) = No 4 engine bombers.
Small bases (one vehicle hanger) = No twin engine level bombers, twin engine dive bombers and fighters are ok (anything that can use "attack" mode)

-Give supply interdiction meaning. I find it ironic when promotional clips show strafing trains and supply convoys and such, but in reality it has almost no impact or effect on gameplay, so almost never actually happens in the game.

-Make task groups far more durable, larger and regenerate more quickly from damage relative to its proximity to a friendly port, making taking ports more important in general. Make their antiaircraft fire far more effective vs. large, slow moving, higher alt targets and less so against fast, small, lower alt targets.

-Make vehicle spawn points to towns from its parent field's VH's as described in base differentiation above. Tweak the range of fields from their towns accordingly.

-Give the whole zone base infrastructure already in place some real teeth to go hand in hand with making factories far more important, make only large airfields eligible to be zone fields.

-Make plane and country ENY factors also apply to the points category in all 4 categories of the ranking system to encourage "high efficiency" and high playtime players to keep the sides relatively close numerically.


I'll let you guys mull those over, I have a whole notebook full. Enjoy.

[Anaxogoras]

-Make task groups far more durable, larger and regenerate more quickly from damage relative to its proximity to a friendly home port. Make their antiaircraft fire far more effective vs. large, slow moving, higher alt targets and less so against fast, small, lower alt targets.

This one is my favorite.  Anything that stops the high-alt B-24s and low-alt Lancstukas from hitting carriers would be a big plus.

I know someone's gonna say, defend the carrier yourself.  In fact, we do!  Eventually one of the bombers in the wave upon wave of Lancs/B-24s/B-26s makes it through.

[Zazen13]

This one is my favorite.  Anything that stops the high-alt B-24s and low-alt Lancstukas from hitting carriers would be a big plus.

I know someone's gonna say, defend the carrier yourself.  In fact, we do!  Eventually one of the bombers in the wave upon wave of Lancs/B-24s/B-26s makes it through.

A single fighter may have a chance to ultimately bring down a heavy formation of bombers. But, in general, the bomber loses a drone, the fighter gets killed/runs out of ammo/or gets oil leak. Meanwhile the bomber proceeds to sink the cv, all but immune from AA even at 8-12k

[Mr No Name]

Burning my perks and getting out for awhile fellas!  Been fun! 

[Warspawn]

11pm PST and STILL Titanic Tuesday has over 600 people in it.

So bad, STOP IT! IT's BAD for you!

 

[Zazen13]

11pm PST and STILL Titanic Tuesday has over 600 people in it.

So bad, STOP IT! IT's BAD for you!

 

It's where AH shines. There's been reasonable flight sim fascimilies that offer a comparable quality product, but they are geared to fewer players in lower concentration, IL2 for example. For most players however, that does not engage the imagination and capture the essence of the chaotic maelstrom only a highly populated furball frenzy can provide. This is the exact situation where AH's design mechanics shine in all their glory.
So, it's decided AH's forte and players affinities are practically one in the same, but at the same time a wedge is sought to drive them apart...It's kind of like biting the hand that feeds you...

[Guppy35]

11pm PST and STILL Titanic Tuesday has over 600 people in it.

So bad, STOP IT! IT's BAD for you!

 

And the hordes were avoiding each other like the plague.  If that's shining, it's pretty dull.

600 people, avoiding fighting each other isn't something to be proud of.

[Warspawn]

And the hordes were avoiding each other like the plague.  If that's shining, it's pretty dull.

Don't know WHAT arena you were flying in, unless you were doing C47 runs somewhere.  FBDred had us running all over with missions, the last one was a pair of bases coordinated with bombers, Jabo's and ground.

Guppy needs some luv, I guess.

[Guppy35]

Don't know WHAT arena you were flying in, unless you were doing C47 runs somewhere.  FBDred had us running all over with missions, the last one was a pair of bases coordinated with bombers, Jabo's and ground.

Guppy needs some luv, I guess.

I was at the Port where Dred and company were fighting no one until the carrier came back up.  I was so bored i was out trolling in a B25C at that point.  Ended up logging for lack of combat.  6 guys hitting one F4F or Seafire trying to defend is not my idea of a good fight.

[The Fugitive]

I can give you several of my favorites, I've suggested some of these before.

-Give factories meaning, make their effects fairly profound, more diverse and wide-ranging, but relatively short-term so a given player during a typical 2-3 hour play session can experience the breadth of how it plays out, from its defense to destruction, to rejuvenation for a continuity of experience.

People don't bother to defend bases half the time, what make you think anyone would bother with a factory? Once the supplies run out, most would either log, or run to the BBS to complain about not having ammo or radar. This is a game, NOT a war simulation. Most play it for fun, not to relive a war.

-Give base sizes meaning as follows, tweaking map layouts to create focal points and logical distribution of field types as necessary:

Large bases (w/ 3 vehicle hangers) = any aircraft can takeoff including 4 engine bombers.
Medium bases (w/ 2 vehicle hangers) = No 4 engine bombers.
Small bases (one vehicle hanger) = No twin engine level bombers, twin engine dive bombers and fighters are ok (anything that can use "attack" mode)

This one has merit and would slow the dive bombing buffs a bit. The problem with it would be the out cry of everyone waiting on the maps to be reworked. I know limiting the planes is just a setting, but the lay out of the fields as they are now would have to be reworked.

-Give supply interdiction meaning. I find it ironic when promotional clips show strafing trains and supply convoys and such, but in reality it has almost no impact or effect on gameplay, so almost never actually happens in the game.

It does effect it, but again your looking to push some boring tactic. While in a war hampering supplies was a dibilitating thing, here in a game its just something to shoot at that people get quickly bored with.

-Make task groups far more durable, larger and regenerate more quickly from damage relative to its proximity to a friendly port, making taking ports more important in general. Make their antiaircraft fire far more effective vs. large, slow moving, higher alt targets and less so against fast, small, lower alt targets.

This one is good too. The CV groups are far too easy to take out.  Both base defense and cv defense fall under the "thats not fun" side of things due mostly to the hording, but add to that the gaming of the game with dive bombing buffs it really takes the fun out of it.

-Make vehicle spawn points to towns from its parent field's VH's as described in base differentiation above. Tweak the range of fields from their towns accordingly.

Re-working maps just for this would be wasted resources. Most towns are close enough to the base that its only a couple minute drive as it is. The problem is that most of the availible kills will be at the base so nobody bother to drive out to the town to defend it. Zaz, even your write up on how to use an osti never says anything about how and where to defend a town.    Again, defending the town falls into that "boring job" category

-Give the whole zone base infrastructure already in place some real teeth to go hand in hand with making factories far more important, make only large airfields eligible to be zone fields.

Again, people would rather complain about not having the supplies than defend the factories. It's a game, not war

-Make plane and country ENY factors also apply to the points category in all 4 categories of the ranking system to encourage "high efficiency" and high playtime players to keep the sides relatively close numerically.

I'd need a bit more information on this one, with out all the big fancy colorful words  not sure what you are suggesting with this one.


I'll let you guys mull those over, I have a whole notebook full. Enjoy.

[Stang]

Don't know WHAT arena you were flying in, unless you were doing C47 runs somewhere.  FBDred had us running all over with missions, the last one was a pair of bases coordinated with bombers, Jabo's and ground.

Guppy needs some luv, I guess.

And what were you guys hitting in these missions?  Places where the fight was raging, or other places that were "easier" to hit and capture?  When a big group of guys decides to go this route, there isn't much a couple lone defenders can do to stop it.  The hordes on the other side won't go at you either, because that isn't easy, so they run around looking for the soft spot on your side to hit. 

What you get when the numbers reach a critical mass is just one giant circlejerk of hordes that never really collide.  They do on occasion, but usually by chance, not by intent.  When this happens its awesome.  Sadly it's the rarity, not the norm.

This kind of play is definately appealing to newer players .  Even veteran players who value teamwork and goal oriented strat play.  But when the roving hordes become the norm, how can there possibly be any semblance of balance in gameplay?  On the macro level there might appear to be with the ebb and flow of the base swings, but on the micro level all you have is a ton of gangs picking on a few enemies.  This is where the problem lies.  The game is played by individuals, on the micro level not the macro.  Sure the guys in hordes playing whack a mole are having a ball, but for the guys who try to stop them it gets old quick. 

If the bigger squads chose to face each other we wouldn't have this problem.  We all know that isn't the case though.  The path of least resistance is usually taken, with few notable exceptions.  That's why the NOE raid is by far the most common type of mission.  Sneak in, get it quick, the rinse and repeat ad nausem.  Fun for some?  Sure.  Good gameplay?  Hell no.