Author Topic: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)  (Read 9952 times)

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #300 on: July 30, 2008, 11:04:58 PM »
I didn't say the game wasn't going down hill.  I said the 30 second rule is rediculous and that I am against any rules that try to force a person who is not exploiting to change their game play.


This will be my last comment in this thread.

Do you remember back when spawnpoints were all single fixed points? True to HTC's design model to discourage methods employed to avoid fighting, this was considered a detriment to gameplay as it rewarded an activity other than actual fighting, the risk vs reward ratio was skewed. It failed to give a reasonable chance for the spawner to defend himself adequately against the spawncamper. It depends on your definition of exploitation, but it definitely was according to mine.

Exploitation is intentionally taking unfair advantage of a game design flaw for maximum personal or collective benefit at the detriment of gameplay.

So, HTC changed it so vehicles spawned at "random" locations to give the spawner at least a minimal chance to defend himself against the spawncamper. The spawner will probably still be spawncamped, but at least he has a small chance to defend himself. Even this small chance is a country mile psychologically for players. So, there has already been a precedent set by HTC in general for this type of action.

Vulching is no different from the vehicle spawn issue except planes are far more flexible in attack and slower to get battle ready than a tank. Planes spawn at a few predictable points that can be "dry passed" in pendulum fashion. In this way defenders are denied a reasonable chance to defend themselves individually or their fields generally against roving, massive, vulching, milk-hordes that cherrypick vacant bases and make it a point to try to affect capture before defense can arrive from adjacent fields wherever possible.

Re-Read the definition of exploitation then that last sentence please...

Affording reactionary defenders 30 secs before they are "score fodder" to get their wheels up is not any different than a tank getting the time to rotate his turret toward a spawncamper to give him a chance to return fire or to move to take cover. The defending aircraft may still get vulched just as the tank may still get spawncamped, but psychologically, having at least a small chance to actually fight is incentive enough to do so and a potential boon to gameplay.

In my personal opinion, a change like this is a win/win for our players and HTC. It's very easy to implement as the code is already in place that prevents a bomber from using its defensive guns prior to liftoff. Unlike the ENY limiter for example, this change would not potentially disenfranchise entire swaths of players by blatantly restricting absolutely fundamental player choices. You will still be able to do everything you can do now all the time if you choose. The only difference is if you purely vulch you will not get score/rank "yum yums" or "text buffer candy puff pieces". So, much like the random vehicle spawns, it's not preventing anything it's just adjusting the currently broken risk vs reward ratio in favor of encouraging actual fighting for those who decide they want the direct reward.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2008, 11:41:55 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #301 on: July 31, 2008, 12:16:08 AM »
This will be my last comment in this thread.

It depends on your definition of exploitation, but it definitely was according to mine.

Exploitation is intentionally taking unfair advantage of a game design flaw for maximum personal or collective benefit at the detriment of gameplay.


Zazen, when did you become so damned verbose? I seem to have missed that transitional epiphany...

I'm trying to understand what dog of yours is in this race. You never spawn a tank, aside from the occasional osti or wirby. The vast bulk of your kills are in "ship gunner" mode, IE: field acks and 5" (not much risk of being vulched in those). When you do fly, it's usually in a Tempest or Typhoon, two primary choices of dedicated cherrypickers, which is your admitted style after all. I'm not criticizing that, just pointing it out. Clearly, you don't get vulched or spawn camped because that's not your "game". Perhaps if you really want to encourage more actual fighting, you may want to step out of the field ack and fly more.

So, I'm still trying to figure out your angle here.

Also, the single point vehicle spawn was not a game flaw, nor was camping it an exploitation. It existed that way for 5 years. If it was an error, it would have been fixed immediately. Maybe by your definition it's an exploitation, but your definition is merely opinion. It's not exploitation to utilize a game feature. It is an exploitation to utilize a known game bug. Big difference.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #302 on: July 31, 2008, 12:22:54 AM »
. It's not exploitation to utilize a game feature. It is an exploitation to utilize a known game bug. Big difference.

My regards,

Widewing


 :aok    yep.
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Vudak

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4819
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #303 on: July 31, 2008, 01:36:24 AM »
You know, Zazen, you write that great thread on the player/plane/etc. dynamic and then you go and forget about one of the major points of it in this thread.

What about the guy who can't get his name in lights, or an "attaboy" or a kill without resorting to vulching?  Why take away his only chance to get this?  I mean, it might not mean much to you, or me, or someone else, but it does mean something to some people.

This game is hard, and discouraging enough.  If you're new and flying in a target-rich environment, you probably won't make it out alive regardless of what you're flying.  If you're new and flying in a target-poor environment (horde), you probably won't have many chances to get those magic 2 kills.  For some people, it can be a real accomplishment when they finally pull it off, no matter how they did it.

2 kills seems so easy to some, but it isn't for others.  A name in lights seems so hollow to some, but it isn't for others.  It might be the enjoyment they're looking to get out of the night.  It might be a real accomplishment to them.

Yeah, I'll admit...  A part of me wants to see how the "career vulch & runners" would react to something like this being put in place...  And a part of me wants to see what the score pages would look like if this were implemented.  But I don't want to make the game any "harder" for the new guy...  And depending on what that new guy's looking to get out of this, such an idea might do exactly that.
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline saantana

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 763
      • Dywizjon 308
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #304 on: July 31, 2008, 02:51:48 AM »
Exactly, I've explained the logic of this from every possible angle I can think of. If the few vocal nay sayers are so obstinate in their position that they can find nothing in the previous 18 pages of explanations compelling, nothing will change their minds.

This is starting to remind me of asking your kid to clean his room, "Billy, clean your room please".
"No!",
"Billy clean your room now!"
"No!"
"Billy I'm not going to tell you again, clean your room!"
"No, I don't want to!"
<Takes belt off, Billy runs to his room>



<Billy calls child services and daddy gets owned> End of story

I also don't understand this comment as two very respectable members of the AH community, Murdr and Widewing whome are both official trainers, did not agree with it. Isn't that enough levarage? My feeling is even if it was only them, this would not have merit.
Saantana
308 Polish Squadron RAF
http://dywizjon308.servegame.org

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept my faith"

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #305 on: July 31, 2008, 08:07:54 AM »
Ummm atta boy?

Scary rate huh? So, how many people in the arena typically are vulching like this?

Last count ... 136
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #306 on: July 31, 2008, 11:18:48 AM »
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Badboy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1217
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #307 on: July 31, 2008, 12:05:09 PM »
So, I'm still trying to figure out your angle here.

I'm guessing he doesn't have one, he probably just has way too much time on his hands and would be equally happy to argue either side.  :rolleyes:

Badboy
The Damned (est. 1988)
  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Air Warrior Trainer - Retired

Offline crockett

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3420
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #308 on: July 31, 2008, 02:07:20 PM »
You know, Zazen, you write that great thread on the player/plane/etc. dynamic and then you go and forget about one of the major points of it in this thread.

What about the guy who can't get his name in lights, or an "attaboy" or a kill without resorting to vulching?  Why take away his only chance to get this?  I mean, it might not mean much to you, or me, or someone else, but it does mean something to some people.

This game is hard, and discouraging enough.  If you're new and flying in a target-rich environment, you probably won't make it out alive regardless of what you're flying.  If you're new and flying in a target-poor environment (horde), you probably won't have many chances to get those magic 2 kills.  For some people, it can be a real accomplishment when they finally pull it off, no matter how they did it.

2 kills seems so easy to some, but it isn't for others.  A name in lights seems so hollow to some, but it isn't for others.  It might be the enjoyment they're looking to get out of the night.  It might be a real accomplishment to them.

Yeah, I'll admit...  A part of me wants to see how the "career vulch & runners" would react to something like this being put in place...  And a part of me wants to see what the score pages would look like if this were implemented.  But I don't want to make the game any "harder" for the new guy...  And depending on what that new guy's looking to get out of this, such an idea might do exactly that.

So we should just dumb down the skill level and not even worry about promoting the need to learn ACM because it's just to hard for the new players..  :aok

Strange I started playing COD4 a few months ago and only played in the realisim servers.. I got my butt handed to me on a regular basis but even in a FPS no one dumbed down the game and let me spawn camp because I was a noob.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 02:09:28 PM by crockett »
"strafing"

Offline trigger2

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1342
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #309 on: July 31, 2008, 02:15:10 PM »
So we should just dumb down the skill level and not even worry about promoting the need to learn ACM because it's just to hard for the new players..  :aok

Strange I started playing COD4 a few months ago and only played in the realisim servers.. I got my butt handed to me on a regular basis but even in a FPS no one dumbed down the game and let me spawn camp because I was a noob.

Exactly, so, I think that if in CoD:4 you can have martyrdom (drops a live nade when you die) after a certain level, after a certain rank, we should drop a live 1k lb bomb on death... 2 second fuse, gives 'em enough time to fly over your non-existant plane :]
Sometimes, we just need to remember what the rules of life really are: You only
need two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and should, use the
WD-40. If it shouldn't move and does, use the duct tape.
*TAs Aerofighters Inc.*

Offline Zazen13

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3600
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #310 on: July 31, 2008, 02:37:19 PM »
So, I'm still trying to figure out your angle here.

Widewing

I have no ulterior motives whatsoever. I am probably the only person in this thread that has no personal vested interest in the ramifications of this change whether it happens or not from my own individual gameplay perspective. I don't fly for score/rank, I never vulch, I never milk-horde, I never get vulched and I never defend reactively. But, I do really, really enjoy 37mm AA gunning, so this change may even curtail my personal fun-factor a bit. The only reason I invest time and energy in any thread explaining a position is because I believe in it and truly believe it would fundamentally improve the game, not for me personally, for everyone.

The salient point that intrigued me about this particular idea is that it partially addresses one of my biggest concerns for this genre, past, present and future. That is, the neglectful condescension of gameplay to appease the lowest common denominator of player. There must be a line drawn in the sand at some point where we, HTC and the community, say, "That's enough!" and take appropriate measures to "pull up the boot straps" of gameplay from the depths of the gutter to somewhere vaguely close to the ideal. If that never happens, the game is in dire peril of devolving into a hideous caricature of its former self, an abomination that is an insult to all those who helped create something beautiful over the years for everyone else to enjoy.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 03:56:06 PM by Zazen13 »
Zazen PhD of Cherrypickology
Author of, "The Zen Art of Cherrypicking" and other related works.
Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline FireDragon

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #311 on: July 31, 2008, 02:47:49 PM »
New players wont know the difference.... So that argument is possible. But can't take place in the experience......    Negatives can only be expressed with representational systems   ie.. mathematics and LANUGUAGE..... but can not happen in the physical universe

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #312 on: July 31, 2008, 03:28:35 PM »
. I am probably the only person in this thread that has no personal vested interest in the ramifications of this change whether it happens or not from my own individual gameplay perspective.

No, you are not.  You sure are full of yourself, aren't you?


Quote
There must be a line drawn in the sand at some point where we, HTC and the community, say, "That's enough!"

Where's the community uproar about this?  I've asked you this repeatedly and you've ignored it. You do not represent the community. You have not been appointed the community rep.  Only you and a couple of others are on board for this and even your small group cannot agree on the reason for implementing it.

Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Vudak

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4819
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #313 on: July 31, 2008, 03:33:23 PM »
So we should just dumb down the skill level and not even worry about promoting the need to learn ACM because it's just to hard for the new players..  :aok


You promote the need to learn ACM when you catch them and shoot them down with vigor...

You promote something else when you chastise them on 200 or the BBS...  (And I know darn well I've been highly guilty of this too).

Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: Adjustment to Scoring (idea)
« Reply #314 on: July 31, 2008, 03:47:11 PM »
Well, I aint saying nothing in the game should ever be changed but one thing your not going to change with rules is human nature.

The only real thing I'd like to see changed is all the side switching and intra-team comms. But, at the same time, those who dont want to see them changed have valid points too. A guy whos been in the game for years, never did a dishonest thing, and likes talking to a friend on another chess piece makes a valid point for no change.

Vulching?? how do you really make rules that can change the flawed gameplay of players who are the causation of their own flaws? And trying to take off from a capped base is flawed tactics. Would allowing a fire free zone around the runway change that? And any cappers would simply stand off a bit and wait for the cons to leave their own ack, as most do already. Ok the base has been de-acked? Well then the attacking team has earned the right to the airspace. And all teams play by the same rules.

Yes there are characters who always seem to show up at capped and de-acked bases in their 4 cannon fighters. But how is rule changing going to change that? And how is it going to change the flawed and lazy behavior of those upping?

You present a good argument zazen, and certainly its your right to do so, but I just dont see this kinda rule changing as helping anything.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"