South Osetia under attack

[Hangtime]

You are never wrong, are you?  Jebus 

You'd enjoy a conversation with my ex-wife. Me; yer not havin' much luck with, are yah?

<S!>

[kamilyun]

Excuse me?

No we didn't. The Afghans made Afghanistan what it is.

Yes, you are correct.  I was simplifying for sake of argument with Hangtime.  We helped Islamists, now we are fighting Islamists.

Their decision whether or not to fight us, yes.

<S>

[Vudak]

Then, after you dream up why it won't work, you can explain to us all why it did work for 50 years.

Keep it short.. I'm getting bored.

Well, for those fifty years, neither Washington nor Moscow was being overrun.

[AKIron]

Vote for Obama and he'll talk to the commies spreading good will and cheer to all. Well, except perhaps to the Georgians, and whoever else Russia decides to absorb.

[Hangtime]

Well, for those fifty years, neither Washington nor Moscow was being overrun.

Nice, short; to the point.

Note that we do not wish to invade moscow. We just want 'em to keep the finger off the nuke triggers while we conventionally dissuade them from annexing georgia and remind them that they really don't wanna invade anybody else with a democratic government that's our ally.

BTW... I'm well aware that we'll never grow the sack necessary to hold off the russians now or later... only that just now, we do have the capability to kick their asses... posthumously via the MAD option or conventionally using the tech we currently have.

[Anodizer]

Please, don't patronize..  These are simple facts that every highschool kid should know..  C'mon...
You don't impress by giving information that anyone over the age of 25 playing this game would know...

Russia HAS balls...  It has balls because it obviously could give two (insert bad word here) about what the rest of the world thinks (proven by it's recent action). It has maintained it's Nuclear Capability even when it was bankrupt for just such an occasion as this..  ANYONE, including the U.S. steps one foot in that region and it will escalate..  Russia sees it's old Soviet satellite states as still being under it's influence(or at least should be).  I would not be surprised if the Ukraine is next with its threats of not allowing Russian ships back into port..  Please get updated on your information...  The Fox News Network is not a good source..  Neither is CNN...

War with Russia is a suicidal move..  And to start war based on principals alone is futile..  The U.S. military is tied up in so many different regions at the moment, moral is low due to long and drawn out deployments..  It would be impossible for the U.S. to do anything worth even mentioning..  U.S. will just have to chalk Georgia up as a loss..  I'm afraid this is realism for you..

In a perfect word, it'd be great to just send in the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, and even the Coast Guard to do a WWII type Normandy invasion and nip Russia in the bud before it decides to expand anymore..  However, we are not in a perfect world..  There will be MAJOR consequences for the U.S. if we get militarily involved..  We are not untouchable..  Especially when it comes to Russia...

Yup.. we can do it.

Question is; will we?

For you panzies out there crying about the Nukes... we've fought the russians before. We did it for 50 years. Some years hot, some by proxy, a lot of years cold. They got nukes, we got nukes. They were not used because they knew, as we knew, that the first guy to launch one will, without any question of doubt, be signing his own and his family's death warrant... men, women, kids. Every single living creature more evolved than a cockroach dies because there is NO way either side can assure survival. 

It was called MAD; Mutually Assured Destruction.

Such a policy takes huge balls.

And everything we have.. this world has, YOU have is because THIS nation had the balls, once; to make that stand, pay that price, and live proudly with that sword over our heads.

'NOBODY can invade a sovereign nation under our protection. Ever. I double-dog DARE you dumb bastards to launch anything that even remotely looks like a weapon of mass destruction... if you do; The United States of America and it's Allies will utterly erase your nation from the face of this planet... three times over; before you can even regret your parents wisdom in having given you birth."

That's what kept Europe free.

OBTW Europe.... Yer welcome; puzzies. And you kids that grew up post-cold war... you ain't got the balls. Obviously. Such is our brave new world.

Frankly, the old one had a helluva lot more cache'. Every stolen kiss, every caught fish, every little victory in life had more flavor... what we have to look forward to now is like life on death row. The sentence has already been pronounced. We're just marking the time till they get around to the execution.

[Hangtime]

Please, don't patronize..  These are simple facts that every highschool kid should know..  C'mon...
You don't impress by giving information that anyone over the age of 25 playing this game would know...

Russia HAS balls...  It has balls because it obviously could give two (insert bad word here) about what the rest of the world thinks (proven by it's recent action). It has maintained it's Nuclear Capability even when it was bankrupt for just such an occasion as this..  ANYONE, including the U.S. steps one foot in that region and it will escalate..  Russia sees it's old Soviet satellite states as still being under it's influence(or at least should be).  I would not be surprised if the Ukraine is next with its threats of not allowing Russian ships back into port..  Please get updated on your information...  The Fox News Network is not a good source..  Neither is CNN...

War with Russia is a suicidal move..  And to start war based on principals alone is futile..  The U.S. military is tied up in so many different regions at the moment, moral is low due to long and drawn out deployments..  It would be impossible for the U.S. to do anything worth even mentioning..  U.S. will just have to chalk Georgia up as a loss..  I'm afraid this is realism for you..

In a perfect word, it'd be great to just send in the Navy, Army, Airforce, Marines, and even the Coast Guard to do a WWII type Normandy invasion and nip Russia in the bud before it decides to expand anymore..  However, we are not in a perfect world..  There will be MAJOR consequences for the U.S. if we get militarily involved..  We are not untouchable..  Especially when it comes to Russia...

You get patronized because your postulations hinge on 'it's to hard, it's not worth it'.

Sorry. But by your reasoning we should never have entered WWII when England's back was against the wall, we should never have attacked at Guadalcanal 6 months after Pear Harbor, we should never have landed at Inchon when we were down to 1/2 division backed up against the sea 150 miles away, we should never have driven the Cong and the NVA back when the launched the TET offensive... let alone a dozen or more other times when the men of this country saddled up and got the damn job done.

Go back to sellin the kiddies on why we can't win. I ain't buying any.

[Anodizer]

Thats exactly why the west should stand up to them. If they get away with this they won't stop.

Just look at Boroda's posts. They think nobody can stop them. Pretty much the same thing Hitler thought.

The U.S. cannot and will not do it alone..  And to be honest, we cannot count on Europe to fight for itself, even though many Western European countries have quite sophisticated arms that rival the U.S. 

I still don't think my point is being understood..  You folks saying we should get involved do not understand the Russian frame work of political and military thinking..  You can't just go in and "stop" them..  Russia has maintained its Nuclear arsenal even through it's economically difficult times for a reason..  I think we are starting to see that reason..  Regardless of what many might think, it has a vast and modern conventional capability as well.. 

Let's talk tactics here..  How does one propose we being to "stop them"?  Where and how do we pull troops from??  Where do we set them up?  Eastern Europe?  Russia will obviously know we would be sending forces in..  The don't have to move as far as the U.S. would..  They would amass troops much more quickly than we ever could..  It would be a war of attrition (IF it stayed conventional) and they would eventually over run any opposition due to superiority in numbers and equipment..  Not to mention, China would most likely get involved after a time, as well as other Russian Allies..  If things start to go badly, I doubt Russia goes to the bargaining table..  Instead, they'll say "Back the F off or we launch at YOU (U.S) AND your allies"... 
And as I said, I would not put much faith in Europe getting involved.. 

But seriously, how would one propose to go ahead and "stop them"?

I really hate to say it...  But Russia has the advantage in this situation in almost every way... 
The U.S. REALLY and TRULY got caught with it's pants down....  Should've listened to Reagan...   

[AKIron]

Kennedy had the resolve to stop the Soviets at great cost, so did Reagan. The Soviets were not so bold as to provoke a massive retaliation in those days mainly because they knew where the line was. Today I'm not so sure.

[Chalenge]

I dont believe Bush has the desire to do anything. Its the end of his term and Congress would not stand for it anyway. He could get us into it and then we would be right back out of it by February. Putin knows how our political system works and I would not be surprised of Pelosi was sharing notes with him anyway... really.

[Anodizer]

Wow...  You just don't see logic...  You really don't...

You are patronizing because you mention significant events in history and talk as if no one has ever heard about them before..
You want to go to war and are all gung-ho about it, but speak NOTHING of the consequences of doing so....  Think about those consequences for a moment....

You keep bringing up instances from WWII, Vietnam, or Korea and those conflicts have absolutely nothing to do with this...
It's not that it's too hard...  It's logistics and the possible outcome (most likely bad)...  Where do we bring these troops from?
From Iraq where most guys are into there 3rd and 4th tours and just want to sweet go home??  Moral is low, my friend....
Every person I know who's military is terrified of being deployed there..   
You make intervention in Georgia sound as if we just go in and "kick ass" and it's all over....  Armchair generals....Gotta love 'em!!

Look, I'm am obviously way out of your league when it comes to world events and how the world actually works and what's at stake here....
You obviously don't understand the Russian political system as well as it's military..  For that, I suggest you actually read up on some of it, and then we can debate this logically instead of you tossing insults that really don't say anything..

What's with the toughguy rhetoric, anyway??  Seriously..  Can you debate this logically?? 

You say that by my reasoning we shouldn't "have entered WWII when England's back was against the wall, we should never have attacked at Guadalcanal 6 months after Pear Harbor, we should never have landed at Inchon when we were down to 1/2 division backed up against the sea 150 miles away, we should never have driven the Cong and the NVA back when the launched the TET offensive... let alone a dozen or more other times when the men of this country saddled up and got the damn job done".

First of all, we didn't enter WWII because England's back was against the wall..  We entered because we were attacked(Pearl Harbor).
I know you know this...  So why otherwise??

Neither of those powers we went up against at those times had the nuclear option..  We live in a completely different world today..  I guarantee you that if we begin to set foot on what Russia already considers theirs, this will escalate, and the Nuclear option WILL be on the table for them..  Why you don't understand this, I'm not sure....  Russia(the Soviet Union) thinks, and has always thought that it could withstand a Nuclear onslaught due to it's vastness and it's own capability to make 2,3,4, even 5 large Nuclear exchanges with the U.S. and it's allies..  Unlike the U.S., Russia and China STILL drill its citizens on what to do in disaster situations (most notably Nuclear Attack)..  They are prepared..  They know the U.S. is weak in this aspect..  Also, Russia knows full well that we will not fire until fired upon..  The Topol-M is the most advanced missile delivery system to date..  Read up on it..  It has the ability to avoid interceptor missiles, it has counter measures, it's designed to be able to withstand anything thrown at it even another nuclear blast..  It was made to be launched at the U.S.  First strike is the key..  And they will make sure they make the first strike if the U.S. decides to intervene on a progressively large scale..  If you are ignorant of this fact, please do some reading on Russian culture, Russian Politics, and the Russian Military (both modern and old).

And I'm not just "postulating" that "oh, it's too hard.....oh, we can't win...."  You seem to think I'm some whiny little liberal or something..
It's not about that...  War with Russia on a large scale will have severe consequences..  And I'm not talking about a halt in car production for several years(no new cars were manufactured from 1941-1945)...  I'm not talking about being frugal with everything because G.I. Joe on the front line needs it more than you... 

You get patronized because your postulations hinge on 'it's to hard, it's not worth it'.

Sorry. But by your reasoning we should never have entered WWII when England's back was against the wall, we should never have attacked at Guadalcanal 6 months after Pear Harbor, we should never have landed at Inchon when we were down to 1/2 division backed up against the sea 150 miles away, we should never have driven the Cong and the NVA back when the launched the TET offensive... let alone a dozen or more other times when the men of this country saddled up and got the damn job done.

Go back to sellin the kiddies on why we can't win. I ain't buying any.

[Hangtime]

But seriously, how would one propose to go ahead and "stop them"?
   

We could negotiate... on a level Russians understand. Start with a note to the Russian Ambassador:

Your government has, by it's recent invasion of Georgia; eradicated 27 years of re-apporachment and common purpose good will. We'd like to inform you that the initial price for invading an ally of the United States is the seizure of all assets owned by Russian business interests in the United States; both national and private, to be held against the cost of rebuilding and repairing what you have destroyed.

Your continued uninvited presence on the sovereign soil of Georgia beyond 00:00 gmt tomorrow will result in the systematic destruction by conventional means, of every asset and article of russian military hardware south of the Georgian border.

Further, Russian Embassies and Consulates on American soil are hereby ordered closed, your diplomats and consular liaisons deemed unwanted on American soil. All Russian national passport Visas are herewith canceled.

It is also germane to indicate that any move, overt or subvert against our european allies would be looked upon as an escalation of hostilities. We have no wish to damage russian assets in russia or abroad; but we will, without hesitation, confiscate, render or cause those assets to become forever useless, starting with those facilities we deem hostile of purpose.

We have no desire to employ any form of weapon of mass destruction. However, we feel it is utterly important to remind the Russian President and his Prime Minister that the United States of America retains, as do you; enough nuclear, chemical and biological capability to render the entire planet uninhabitable... any move, in any location on this planet to employ such a device would be answered by this nation with an overwhelming retaliatory strike against your homeland and it's armed allies.

Your departure from Georgia is not debatable. What is debatable is the means of your departure. If your government so choses, they may immediately begin disengagement and start for the border and the United States will place on hold the punitive measures outlined above.

*sigh*

We could... but; since we're owned by corporate interests, the concept of nationalism is sounding weak; even to me.

*sigh*

Damn, where's the nation our fathers served?

[Octavius]

Hey Anodizer, err, Ramzey, welcome to the discussion.

[ramzey]

Hey Anodizer, err, Ramzey, welcome to the discussion.

lala, lala , lala, Octavius shooting blanks.................
you are mistaken my friend, i don't do shade on AHBB, neither anywhere else

[FrodeMk3]

*sigh*

We could... but; since we're owned by corporate interests, the concept of nationalism is sounding weak; even to me.

*sigh*

Damn, where's the nation our fathers served?

What you've just said reminds me of something, Hangtime...

This country's still led by a batpoop-crazy Texan.

All we really know is, that he's trying to use diplomacy. That diplomacy could have more than one end...obviously, a ways' to end this conflict peacefully (but judging by Russian responses' so far, has failed.)

He could also be stalling for time, time to shift military assets, call on any favors, etc. This whole situation is going to be...well, at least the first Cuban Missile crisis of the 21st century.

It's hard to predict what will happen in the next few days. Maybe the Russians' will do as they claim, and withdraw back to Ossetia; even though it looks unlikely at this point, There's still a possibility.

Maybe that with all of our other military commitments, and the speed with which this all happened, The President can't consider a military option until the assets' are all in place. My guess is, that any U.S. force shifts' will NOT make it on the news, until their arrival in Georgia is imminent. Even the Rapid Deployment force takes' something like 48 hours' from first notification to boots-on-the-ground, and they won't be able to fly anything in until the sky is clear. I don't know if the Navy's willing to risk a Carrier group in the Black sea, Even if the Turks' let it pass, so Air superiority/support might have to come from the USAF's closest fields' to the theatre in question.

Look, there's one more thing I'd like to bring up, and it's partly conjecture. Bush was talking about building a 'missile shield' in Europe. Ok. If he's seriously talking about it, then that means' that the technology for it has to be existant. If that's the case, then is it too much to assume, that possibly there are some elements' of a missile shield in place here in the U.S.? Possibly enough to court the possibility of waging a N-war? Like I said, this is quite a bit of conjecture.

As for simply letting the Russians' overrun Georgia...An American ally, that's helped us in Iraq (discipline reports' nonwithstanding) and with the added chip of securing the BC pipelines, I just don't see the U.S. letting it happen.

Not to mention, China would most likely get involved after a time, as well as other Russian Allies..

I would believe that if this was the case, then we'd see a ton of rhetoric from all of the Russian Allies, starting right now in an attempt to legitimize Russia's position. All that's come out of Beijing has been Crickets, and I don't think that's been because of any Oriental tradition of politeness, even due to the Olympics. First of all, even though they are communists, perhaps the most diehard of them outside of the pre-glasnost USSR, they have never had the best of relations' with the russians, as seen by several border clashes' in Mongolia-Siberia. Plus, China is making a pretty penny off of U.S. trade and manufacturing. As a matter of fact, it's because of this that they have risen to become a major world power. I do not think that they will wreck that over a matter such as Georgia. Especially when you consider, that if the Russians' shut off the pipelines, It will affect worldwide oil prices, because now the existing supply in the Middle east is going to have to be traded in Europe, too, and that will be splitting less oil with more countries'.

I believe that pipeline is going to do an awful lot of influencing in diplomatic relations' over the coming days...