Author Topic: What a friking boring game this has become  (Read 5362 times)

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2008, 07:08:37 PM »

Bluntly, if you have a major problem with targets running away all the time, you are probably in a ride that trades speed for maneuverability. That is a limitation you chose to inflict upon yourself, and whether you overcome it or not is purely up to you. Perhaps guys who fly P-51s should complain that other planes turn too tightly for them to follow, its "unfair". Perhaps guys who like to fly P-40s should complain that the 109s have too much horse-power and its "unfair" how they leave them in the dust in the vertical. This would make about as much sense.



If I had a nickel for everytime I've said this Bill Gates would be my housemaid.

If you are flying a slow uber turner you're going to get the living crap BnZ'd out of you guaranteed, it's what is supposed to happen. How that is surprising to people is beyond comprehension. Just as when you fly a poor turning speedster you're going to get outmaneuvered if you get in too tight, it's a core balancing truism of air combat and always has been. I have never, once ever in my entire 18 years of this ever, once heard a speedster driver complain a Spit out-turned him. But, 100 times an hour you hear the slow turny plane driver crying he was BnZ'd, outrun, rundown, left in the dust, dragged to ack or friends or whatever...It really boggles the mind...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 07:34:41 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2008, 07:17:03 PM »
.

Nothing limits your choice on what you can fly. If no one in a bnz plane is attacking you, they are just scenery. If they do attack you, there is always a window for an overshoot kill. It may be short and require exceptional gunnery skills, but so what? This is similar to how the firing window to kill a much better t'n'ber in a bnz plane will often be short and require exceptional gunnery skills.


In a furball situation, I practically disregard anyone more than 2k above me. I keep them in my mental SA registry but that's it. If I see them taking a pass I just chop throttle and tighten a turn until they overshoot/pull-off or suck them down for a good old fashioned gang-banging. Either way, if that's all they are doing, BnZing, and you're having trouble with them you're doing something fundamentally wrong. There's only about 10 people in the game that really worry me when they are way above me simply because they have amazing aim, the rest are just amusing ornaments. I am far more respectful and wary of the lower con hiding his E, they are usually far more dangerous.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 07:20:54 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline 1Boner

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2008, 07:46:34 PM »
But, 100 times an hour you hear the slow turny plane driver crying he was BnZ'd, outrun, rundown, left in the dust, dragged to ack or friends or whatever...It really boggles the mind...

I really have no problem being BnZd, run down, etc etc.

My problem is that no matter what I'm flying,if I see a 51, it is running. The 51 has become the Forrest Gump of our planeset. I can understand the 47 and 190, but the 51?

I mean c'mon, how much of an advantage do ya have to have to fight?  Running from anything co-alt? :uhoh

I can't count the amount of 51s I see drop out of the stratosphere to make a high speed vulch pass on a base and then run home regardless of getting a kill or not.

The magnitude of my disdain for this type of play overwhelms me to the point of blinding rage!!

I will (knowing I will never return to my home sweet home) chase these clowns all the way back to their base, even if I have no ammo and I'm low on fuel, on the outside chance I can ram them.

As his base ack removes my plane from around me, you can hear me swearing as I throw my clipboard and any empty beer cans I have at my disposal at his so called"fighter" and plunge to my virtual demise.

Such is my hatred.

Boner




Jk--Actually P-51 hunting has actually become one of my favorite pastimes.

I just took it up and hope to get much better at it soon. :aok

Those pesky little critters sure are fast though.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2008, 08:09:12 PM »
Since anyone flying one of those planes trying to boom and zoom you is a horrible pilot, they are harmless to you and a non-issue.

But they were'nt.  They ran at the first sight of opposition.

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Seriously though, the only time I run into difficulty with runners is when I'm tooling along in a SpitVIII or the like. Sometimes I latch onto the long six of a Mustang or similar, and low and behold, they extend away. I suppose I should be indignant and filled with anger that they did not reverse back into me and give an easy kill.

Bluntly, if you have a major problem with targets running away all the time, you are probably in a ride that trades speed for maneuverability. That is a limitation you chose to inflict upon yourself, and whether you overcome it or not is purely up to you. Perhaps guys who fly P-51s should complain that other planes turn too tightly for them to follow, its "unfair". Perhaps guys who like to fly P-40s should complain that the 109s have too much horse-power and its "unfair" how they leave them in the dust in the vertical. This would make about as much sense.

I have fought some very good P-51 pilots in a Spit.  Fights that went on for a very long time in tight and turning.  Today I did so in a N1K against a P-47.  Some of the best P-47 flying I've seen.  Likewise I've done the same in a 190A-8 against a host of mid-tier energy and turn fighters.

Learning to fight in the plane of your choice?  I guess that's too much to ask huh?

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Also, it is not a matter of planes. The SpitXVIs are as likely to "extend" from a Hurri as a P-51 is from a Spit in my experience. But I don't consider this unreasonable. I've also known P-51s to run from Doras...here the point is not I suppose to win the race long term but to drag you to ack and under friendly forces. Oh well, I've learned not to chase runners who are obviously dragging me to a trap. Perhaps there would be less wailing and gnashing of teeth on the boards if everbody did the same.

Extending is one thing and is reasonable.  Running everytime you see an enemy is another.  Wait... I guess we need to put a limit on it.  Extending a couple of K is one thing.  A couple of sectors is another.

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I have seen people argue that if the energy fighter takes his shot, his gunnery skills are inadequate, and he ends up with a superior angles fighter on his long six, he should reverse back into it and die. But one could also argue that if the angles fighter generates an overshoot and fails to get the kill before the energy fighter has extended, he does not deserve the kill because his gunnery skills are inadequate.

See my comment above about learning how to fight.

Here are the top excuses runners always give and my retort:

"I fly to survive"  Learn to survive a fight.
"I won't engage at a disadvantage"  Learn to fight from a disadvantaged position.
"I won't turn with a "turny" plane"  Learn your plane; you obviously don't know it.

BTW, Here were some of the match-up's last night:

P-51D running fron a P-51B
La-7 running from a Spit IX
And in the DA a C.205 running from a Spit V

Just how much disparity does it take?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2008, 08:18:54 PM by BaldEagl »
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Offline dedalos

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2008, 08:27:57 PM »
Since anyone flying one of those planes trying to boom and zoom you is a horrible pilot, they are harmless to you and a non-issue.


True on both.  However, 1 or two of them are a waste of time, and 10 of them are not really harmless.  One at a time, I guess it could be funny and may get a laugh depending on the mood lol
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Offline 1Boner

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2008, 08:29:05 PM »
It is not the bird ,it is the sticks that fly them,i think you find most people that fly 190's pony's and other fast birds are new so they dont know any beater,I'll fly against yea anytime in a pony and i wont ack hug or run.And i cant help but notice most of your kills are in a La7.



I agree with you 1000%

Couldn't help but notice that most of your kills are in a P-51.

Check your PMs.

I am looking forward to dueling against you and your stang.



Your pal,

Boner
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"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline Getback

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2008, 08:50:59 PM »
I had a great time last night, Saturday. We, Bish, took field 44 and the fight was on. Rooks sent to full dar bars to 44. I would guess we were out numbered 2 to 1. I upped an F4U1A and went at it. I fully expected to be picked by the horde but it never happened. My first victim was a b26 and the second was a b24. Then I swooped in on a p51 diving on a comrad and nailed him. We actually collided but I won the bumptard contest. Then I picked a N1k1. Then a minute later took down an F41d. There was one 51 that remained high and took one swoop at me and went back up and as far as I know never came back down. There was also a tempest that took at least one swoop at me then climbed up to about 22k and I don't think he ever came back down. In fact the tempest pretty much hung out over the action the entire time. I guess until he ran out of gas. Ended up landing 5 kills in that mess. Went up a bit later and landed 5 more kills. It was a very good night for me. There definately was action to be had.

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Offline Gixer

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2008, 09:51:51 PM »
If I see them taking a pass I just chop throttle and tighten a turn until they overshoot/pull-off or suck them down for a good old fashioned gang-banging.

Odd, as I've always considered a simple break with or without any vertical the least aggressive and least effective defensive move if someone is diving down on your six with energy. Unless they are in a F4U and can use it's gamey tricks to prevent themselves from over shooting.


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Offline BnZ

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2008, 09:55:58 PM »
But they were'nt.  They ran at the first sight of opposition.

I have fought some very good P-51 pilots in a Spit.  Fights that went on for a very long time in tight and turning.  Today I did so in a N1K against a P-47.  Some of the best P-47 flying I've seen. 

Who won?

I've killed N1Ks and Spits 1v1 with the "bricks" in question. It can be done. However, if you look back and see a Spit on your long six with little to no closure in a P-51D, you are better off extending. And if you are in the typical melee, slow that Pony down too much, you are dead for any Spitfire that cares to latch on to your tail with controlled closure. (Yes, I realize a Pony at corner speed can dodge a 400mph diving Spit as easily as a Spit dodges a Pony screaming in at mach .6. But I'm not willing to bet every Spit driver in the melee is that callow.)


 Likewise I've done the same in a 190A-8 against a host of mid-tier energy and turn fighters.


Sir, I mean no disrespect. I understand you are a very good pilot. None of this false modesty crap, you are well above average. But I can't believe well-trained pilots in Spits are regularly loosing duels with the 190A8. Throttle control, lag pursuit, are these things unknown in the MA?


Learning to fight in the plane of your choice?  I guess that's too much to ask huh?

Extending is one thing and is reasonable.  Running everytime you see an enemy is another.  Wait... I guess we need to put a limit on it.  Extending a couple of K is one thing.  A couple of sectors is another.


My normal practice when I have good smash in an energy fighter like the the Dora and see a lone co-alt fighter like the Spit is just to merge. If they make a mistake which presents an opportunity (usually merging nose down in an attempt to HO), I'll work on them. If they know their business and end up on my long six, I'll run. It is their fight to loose.

Myself, I won't normally reverse on and continue to harass the plane that just drove me off if he decides to turn around and find something else to do. I've been on the receiving end of this: Climbing into the saddle, having the faster fighter run away, turning around to find something else to do and then having to repeat the process, SUCKS much more than if the thing just rides off into the sunset.  Also, one must consider the ancient Chinese definition of insanity: Repeating the same process and expecting different results.

Normal MA environments are NOT 1v1 though and normally the thought processes involve something like keeping the speed high and not committing unless I can drag one out of range of red icons.



Here are the top excuses runners always give and my retort:

"I fly to survive"  Learn to survive a fight.
"I won't engage at a disadvantage"  Learn to fight from a disadvantaged position.
"I won't turn with a "turny" plane"  Learn your plane; you obviously don't know it.


Sir, the primary purpose of a top speed advantage is being able to choose when to engage and disengage. If you close the disengaging option, then top speed hardly matters anymore, and the complexion of what aerial combat is like and what planes are favorable will look even less like WWII than it does now. Whether or not this would be a good thing is a subjective matter I suppose. Some planes are built to boom and zoom/E-fight, it is what they do best and are second rate at best trying to do something else. Apparently there are alot of people who are not flying these boom and zoom planes to their full potential. But their are also alot of people not flying turn and burners to their full potential. There is only one reason I can see why the former are loathed so much and the latter are not. Presumably, the latter cannot escape after they screw up, and end up being another kill for a more experienced stick. Forgive me if the complaint that too many people are refusing to let themselves be shot down strikes me as petty.


BTW, Here were some of the match-up's last night:

P-51D running fron a P-51B
La-7 running from a Spit IX
And in the DA a C.205 running from a Spit V

Just how much disparity does it take?


Sir, I can top all of those. I have seen P-51s running from my Dora. I have even had an La7 running from my 190-A5 on a couple of occasions. What is your point? I figure that if they knew how to beat me, I wouldn't be on their six watching them run away. Chasing them only leads to tears.  *shrug* Live and let live.

 I mean, come on, which is worse? Would those who complain about runners REALLY rather have someone in a much less maneuverable aircraft make them look like an idiot and shoot them down? That stings. What they really want is that runner to come back and become a kill for them.

<S>


Offline Yossarian

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2008, 10:12:21 PM »
Have any of you stopped to consider the fact that some of us sometimes just don't feel like fighting?  If I don't feel like fighting, I will run.

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Offline Getback

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2008, 10:30:38 PM »
Odd, as I've always considered a simple break with or without any vertical the least aggressive and least effective defensive move if someone is diving down on your six with energy. Unless they are in a F4U and can use it's gamey tricks to prevent themselves from over shooting.


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What trickery is that?

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Offline 1Boner

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2008, 10:35:36 PM »
Have any of you stopped to consider the fact that some of us sometimes just don't feel like fighting?  If I don't feel like fighting, I will run.

<S>

Yossarian


When I don't feel like fighting, I go fishing or something.

I don't turn on a fighting game.
"Life is just as deadly as it looks"  Richard Thompson

"So umm.... just to make sure I have this right.  What you are asking is for the bombers carrying bombs, to stop dropping bombs on the bombs, so the bombers can carry bombs to bomb things with?"  AKP

Offline Zazen13

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2008, 10:42:46 PM »
Odd, as I've always considered a simple break with or without any vertical the least aggressive and least effective defensive move if someone is diving down on your six with energy. Unless they are in a F4U and can use it's gamey tricks to prevent themselves from over shooting.


<S>...-Gixer
 

Ummm, I didn't say I did a flat horizontal turn...In my tactics guides I say never turn purely vertical or horizontal when avoiding a gun pass.
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Offline Zazen13

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #88 on: August 17, 2008, 11:44:03 PM »
Sir, I can top all of those. I have seen P-51s running from my Dora. I have even had an La7 running from my 190-A5 on a couple of occasions. What is your point? I figure that if they knew how to beat me, I wouldn't be on their six watching them run away. Chasing them only leads to tears.  *shrug* Live and let live.

 I mean, come on, which is worse? Would those who complain about runners REALLY rather have someone in a much less maneuverable aircraft make them look like an idiot and shoot them down? That stings. What they really want is that runner to come back and become a kill for them.

<S>



That's one reason I love the Typhoon. Almost any plane in the set figures they have a good chance at it. I almost never get ran away on, they'll prefer to fight.
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Quote, "Cherrypicking is a state of mind & being, not only Art and Scienc

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: What a friking boring game this has become
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2008, 11:52:04 PM »
.................................

BnZ,  I suggest you go to the Help and Training forum and watch the two films Urchin posted today in the 190 thread to see what's possible in what most consider a plane that can't turn.

Once you've finished watching them, then come back and tell me how you think he did that.  My bet is it wasn't by running.

Oh, and BTW, you'de think I was a n00b if you've seen my flying lately.   :rofl
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