Author Topic: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge  (Read 3535 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2008, 03:51:03 PM »
Only about 12% of our oil comes from the Middle East...the rest comes from Canada, Venezuela, Mexico, Nigeria, Algeria, Ecuador, and England.

So I don't think it would be hard to just shift that 12% to other sources (Not a big fan of Venezuela, though) or better yet, just fill the 12% with OUR OWN OIL!

Yup... but instead of breaking the problem down to a workable national demand and regional supply level, the debate ALWAYS gets shifted to 'world market'. Lets solve our problem first.
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Offline Mr No Name

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #91 on: September 06, 2008, 04:45:16 PM »
For the guy who disagreed with my numbers about the Bakken oil fields, have according to almost every set of numbers I could find, between 200 and 400 BILLION barrels of RECOVERABLE oil.  Perhaps one or two of the actual sites in the Bakken group of fields may reach 2.x Billion barrels, maybe those were the numbers you got.

One of the pools they described as a thin underground river of oil 12 miles wide and 50 miles long. The layer was so thin, they actually missed it on initial drilling because they went through it too rapidly. Environmental groups are putting up fights at every step to prevent the development of these resources.  20 years ago, we did not have the technology to recover this oil, but now we do.
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Offline Elfie

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2008, 07:00:23 PM »
Yup... but instead of breaking the problem down to a workable national demand and regional supply level, the debate ALWAYS gets shifted to 'world market'. Lets solve our problem first.

It's usually people outside America that shift the discussion to *world market* issues.  :uhoh
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Offline Baitman

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2008, 07:03:32 PM »
One of the pools they described as a thin underground river of oil 12 miles wide and 50 miles long.
Next time you hear some one describe an oil bearing formation this way, do not believe anything else the person has to say because he knows less nothing of how oil is found in the ground. There are too many stock brokers that talk this way, run from them you will save money in the long run.

You keep mentioning Coal.....that is a fossil fuel......

I mention it because we could switch very quickly and easily and then it would give time for the bio and syn fuels to come into production.

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Offline Elfie

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #94 on: September 06, 2008, 07:08:07 PM »
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I mention it because we could switch very quickly and easily and then it would give time for the bio and syn fuels to come into production.

It is still a fossil fuel and it is a source of at least one synthetic fuel.
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Offline Baitman

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #95 on: September 06, 2008, 07:26:12 PM »
It is still a fossil fuel and it is a source of at least one synthetic fuel.

CC

But do some research on where the majority of the coal is in the world though. US has the largest proven reserves of coal. Wiki it.

 :aok
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Offline Nashwan

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #96 on: September 06, 2008, 07:37:57 PM »
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The governor of Alaska says 5 years.

And her experience in the oil business is?

the EIA point out that the last 2 Alaskan fields to be brought in to production took 6 and 8 years, and that doesn't include the time to acquire and explore the leases.

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When Bush lifted the executive ban on offshore drilling the price dropped.

You're not seriously suggesting that was the cause, surely? Seriously?

The drop in the oil price was caused by Saudi increasing production by up to 700,000 barrels a day in July, coupled with a reduction in demand due to recession and price hikes.

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And of course, if they do......no more F-15's for them. No more American weapons.....in fact.....just tell them....if you do, we bomb YOU...

I don't think threatening to bomb the world's largest oil producer is going to do much to reduce the price of oil. That's why both the US president and British prime minister went cap in hand to Saudi to ask them to produce more oil.

The fact is Saudi actually cut production in 2006, and again in 2007, and that's one of the major reasons for the rise in the oil price.

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It makes us less dependent on foreign oil. Anything we can do to decrease our dependency on others for our energy needs is a good thing.

It is. I'm absolutely in favour of the US drilling in the OCS and ANWR and Bakken. I just don't think it will make much difference, and I think if people expect it to, drilling could actually be counterproductive. The US needs to face up to the fact it is dependent on oil from some pretty dodgy countries.

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How come when we're talking about US dependence on middle eastern oil, we keep hearing world oil market, world production levels, OPEC, etc.

Because oil is a world market.

Let's imagine the US totally eliminated ME oil imports, and instead imported only from Canada, Mexico and Russia.

What happens to Saudi? Do they get poorer? No, because the countries that were importing Russian oil will instead import Saudi oil.

There will be some effect on everybody, because oil will tend to travel further distances, which costs more, and there will be less flexibility in the refinery market, which will put up costs a bit further.

Now imagine there's a coup in Saudi. Is the US affected? Of course it is, because whoever was buying Saudi oil (say China and Europe) will now be buying Russian and Canadian and Mexican oil to make up the shortfall.

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I'm convinced we can get off middle eastern oil TODAY.. and we CAN get on Canadian, Mexican and South American contracts TODAY.

You need more than just those countries.

The US consumes 20 million barrels a day. The US, Canada, Mexico and South and Central America between them produce almost exactly the same amount of oil.

But of course all the other countries in the Americas use oil as well. Canada isn't going to send all it's oil to the US, and leave none for themselves, neither is Mexico, or Venezuela, or indeed any country.

In total the Americas produce just over 20 million barrels but consume just over 30 million, so the US is going to have to import oil from elsewhere. And production is falling in North America (0.5% last year) and South and Central America (3.6% last year), so the problem is likely to keep getting worse.

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For the guy who disagreed with my numbers about the Bakken oil fields, have according to almost every set of numbers I could find, between 200 and 400 BILLION barrels of RECOVERABLE oil.

Then I suggest you go and look at more rational sources. The USGS report is available on the net.

There's certainly a lot of oil in Bakken, but reliable sources say only a very small percentage is recoverable with current technology.

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It's usually people outside America that shift the discussion to *world market* issues.

Perhaps that's because we understand the concept of a world market better.

If you are an oil producer in, say, Nigeria, who do you sell oil to? The US? Europe? Japan? China? No, you sell it to whoever offers you the most money.

The US can control its own oil supply, and make sure that all the oil produced in the US is kept in the US, but at the end of the day the US still has to import close to 14 million barrels a day, and it's going to have to do that at market price, because if the US isn't prepared to pay the market rate, there are plenty of others that will.

Offline Holden McGroin

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #97 on: September 06, 2008, 07:46:56 PM »
The US can control its own oil supply, and make sure that all the oil produced in the US is kept in the US, but at the end of the day the US still has to import close to 14 million barrels a day, and it's going to have to do that at market price, because if the US isn't prepared to pay the market rate, there are plenty of others that will.

However, if we drill what there is domestically, fully exploit wind, encourage synfuel coal, build nuclear, natural gas, residential solar, and otherwise diversify our energy supply, we could reduce our foreign oil dependence massively to where a cut in supply from any one region or country would only effect the mix by a few percent. 
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Offline Elfie

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #98 on: September 06, 2008, 07:58:37 PM »
However, if we drill what there is domestically, fully exploit wind, encourage synfuel coal, build nuclear, natural gas, residential solar, and otherwise diversify our energy supply, we could reduce our foreign oil dependence massively to where a cut in supply from any one region or country would only effect the mix by a few percent. 

And that's exactly what Nashwan fails to see....every time.
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Offline Elfie

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #99 on: September 06, 2008, 08:03:43 PM »
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But do some research on where the majority of the coal is in the world though. US has the largest proven reserves of coal. Wiki it

I know where it is. The US has some 250 billion tons of recoverable coal and that's just what we know about right now. It is equivalent to something like 800 billion barrels of oil, far more than Saudi Arabia's known reserves.

You've said we need to get away from fossil fuels, then keep pointing to coal.....coal IS a fossil fuel.....so which side of the fence are you actually on?  :D

I know which side I am on, use the stuff. Get those refineries online, modify existing refineries if that's possible. Let's get independent of foreign oil asap.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
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Offline Elfie

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2008, 08:08:33 PM »
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You're not seriously suggesting that was the cause, surely? Seriously?

It dropped the very next day.

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And her experience in the oil business is?

the EIA point out that the last 2 Alaskan fields to be brought in to production took 6 and 8 years, and that doesn't include the time to acquire and explore the leases.

I think it's safe to assume she knows more about her own state than you or I do.

What exploration needs to be done in ANWR? They already know exactly where to drill, it's a 2000 acre section of the coastal plain. There is far to much red tape involved in setting up new oil fields in America today. Cut out much of that red tape and I'm sure things can be done far quicker than the 10 yrs all the *don't drill because it wont help* people are saying.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
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Offline Hangtime

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2008, 08:11:02 PM »
Getting off foreign oil is a national security issue.

Can anybody dispute that?

What deeds have we done in the name of National Security?

What the hell are we waiting for?

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Offline Elfie

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2008, 08:17:29 PM »
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Getting off foreign oil is a national security issue.

Exactly. Every barrel, every gallon, every drop of oil that we drill for ourselves and don't import is a good thing and gets us closer to energy independence.

Energy independence should be a very high priority for this country.

I don't care if we have to tap cows farts for methane gas to power our cars, lets get it done.
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Offline Baitman

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #103 on: September 06, 2008, 08:28:12 PM »
I know where it is. The US has some 250 billion tons of recoverable coal and that's just what we know about right now.
:aok

You've said we need to get away from fossil fuels, then keep pointing to coal.....coal IS a fossil fuel.....so which side of the fence are you actually on?  :D

I know which side I am on, use the stuff. Get those refineries online, modify existing refineries if that's possible. Let's get independent of foreign oil asap.
:aok

In reality there are some places that we need fossil fuels (aircraft). But if we can remove fossil fuels from everything we can (home heating :aok) and shift to something that we in North America can control. Cars can run well on ethanol or NG. Buses and trucks can burn bio diesel or coal based fuels.

Most people will not switch however until it make economic sense.

Drilling in a park or wild life reserve is dangerous because it will set a precedence. :noid

I can't wait until the Chevy volt comes out.  :aok

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Offline Donzo

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Re: ANWR = Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #104 on: September 06, 2008, 08:44:42 PM »
I can't wait until the Chevy volt comes out.  :aok

Why wait for volt when you can have a Tesla Roadster now... http://www.teslamotors.com/  :D