Pony B Population

[Krusty]

First of all you keep saying "with the pony's porked flaps" -- the P51D was never a great turnfighter. It couldn't out turn 109s as the previous post griped it should.

The "porkage" is in relationship to the % of turn radius gained between no flaps and full flaps, as compared to most of the other planes in this game.


As for flaps, the P-51 can lower flap notches much faster than the 190D, but the 190D has a very smart instantaneous turn rate, and can pull a LOT of Gs in a short time span. It will bleed some speed as it does it, but it can seriously break away from a high-speed P-51. Flaps or no, the P-51 will be limited in how hard it can break at these speeds. The flaps really only help at medium speeds and low speeds, in which case the 190D and the P-51s are both in the same problem zone.

When I'm in a 190 I don't have too much trouble with P-51s. I like the match-up. When I'm in a P-51D I think the same of 190Ds as my targets, only perhaps it's a bit harder from this side of the fence.

They're really rather similar rides, IMO.

[LaFever]

B is 90% of what the D is, plus I like it's climb/low speed handling better as well as the fact I think I could fly it without having to think of myself as a "dweeb".  For 20 ENY heck yeah.
Aside: Methinks 190 drivers are much better than pony drivers (generality of course)

[SectorNine50]

Interesting conversation, the few planes I fear in my Pony B are LA7's, Yaks, Spit IX or XVI's with an e advantage, 109's (Depends on the stick), and the occasional F4U.  F4U's are usually no problem, but when they have more E than I do, it worries me a bit.  The huge advantage in the Pony B I see is it's stability at very low speeds.  I've figured out how to keep that thing flying at full flaps and 100 mph.  It's very nice for the 190's that are scissoring in front of you, I just slow wayyy down, go straight with full flaps and hit them on the deflection shot every time they pass in front of me.  F4U's tend to have a harder time staying on my six at low speeds as well.

I personally love my convergence at 400 and 375 since that's where I always seem to find myself opening fire.

I actually hate B n' Zing, oddly enough, I'd rather get down and dirty in a furball.  The biggest issue in dogfighting a pony, in my opinion, is flap and WEP management.  It seems like my flaps are constantly moving between 0, 1, and 2 notches, that coupled with WEP in a hard turn makes these things crank around pretty surprisingly well.  I have found myself having to extend and gain alt against some turn fighters before though, they usually don't like it when I come back and sneak up on them again in standard pony fashion...

The B model is a better plane than the D at low alt, in my opinion.  However, once you get up above 15k, the D model rules.

[Steve]

Well, first of all, the 190 D9 isn't really a 375 mph fighter in typical combat configuration.... text

 You've pointed out that the D9 turns better w/ flaps, out climbs, out accelerates, out rolls, is more lethal and is faster. Most fights occur below 10k so the numbers above 13k matter little. A pony has better views..are you saying the views offset all the advantages the d9 has?

 I could be mistaken but it seems like you are not being objective, no offense.

[SectorNine50]

Out of curiosity, have you ever had a hard time dogfighting 190's in-game Steve?  Reason I ask is they seem easy pickings to me.  A squad mate, Deth13, flys the A8 and Dora a lot.  Even when I had a 1v1 with him it seemed like no match, really.

[BaldEagl]

In terms of  a 1v1 fight, what does a pony do better than the d9 besides low speed turning?(and that only marginally)
Same with the 152?

There you have it (except it's at both mid and low speeds).  That plus the notorious instability of the 190's at low speeds.

The P-51 has a big edge in dive speed over the 152 and the 152 suffers from a glass radiator.

The P-51D's edge may be marginal but the P-51B will outturn either of these with ease (but of course gives up speed).

[BnZ]

Never said it was a "great" turn fighter Krusty. Its all relative though! The P-51D currently turns worse than a few fighters that, by all rights, it should not. Are you telling me you think the D9, with its decidedly higher wing-loading and Split-type flaps should make a smaller minimum circle than a P-51 with maneuvering flaps? Looks odd to me. Looks even odder when both the Allied and Axis pilots say the Pony turns better than the Jug, but we get the opposite result here.

Steve: I only cited the D9 vs. P-51's full flaps radius as an example of oddness in the flight model. Under actual conditions D9 will never get a chance to use full flaps to turn tighter than the Pony. FIRST notch of flaps on the D9 looks like it comes out looks like ~180mph on my ASI. The D9 is already a wallowing target at those speeds.

[Steve]

Out of curiosity, have you ever had a hard time dogfighting 190's in-game Steve?  Reason I ask is they seem easy pickings to me.  A squad mate, Deth13, flys the A8 and Dora a lot.  Even when I had a 1v1 with him it seemed like no match, really.

Yes, a well flown d9, A8 or A5 give me trouble. If they are easy pickins for you, it may be a simple function of you bring a better cartoon pilot than me. 

[BnZ]

Yes, a well flown d9, A8 or A5 give me trouble. If they are easy pickins for you, it may be a simple function of you bring a better cartoon pilot than me. 

WTF? :

I have seen you disassemble F4Us, F6Fs, 109s, etc. 190s should not be giving you trouble.

[Krusty]

BnZ ever since the airflow recode of.. what was it? 2.06? ... the 190s no longer flop below 180mph. They're no spitfires but the airflow bug has been fixed and they are much more "normal" along with the 109s. Definitely not the friend of slow speeds, but able to hold on better.

Also, don't compare full flaps. Full flaps were NEVER used in combat. This is a major problem in Aces High, in that they are hyper-abused in almost every fight. They don't have nearly as much detriment to high-G turns as they should. Split flaps should have no benefit on spitfires but they do, and they make P-40s into a6ms for a short period of time.

Look at the "no flaps" turn radii here:

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p51d&p2=p51b&p3=p47d40&p4=190d9

You'll see the "no flaps" is about right. The problem is only in how AH implements flaps and how players abuse it to get easier kills.

And I wasn't saying the 190D can out turn the P-51 with flaps use. I was saying the instant turn rate will help break a P-51 from behind a Dora's tail, and help him get out of a bad situation. That coupled with climb, acceleration, rolling (scissors as the P-51 swings too wide while trying to pop its high-speed flaps?) will favor the 190. It's not a total domination, but I think the Dora has the upper hand in general.

[Steve]

WTF? :

I have seen you disassemble F4Us, F6Fs, 109s, etc. 190s should not be giving you trouble.

Particularly at mid to high speed fights, a well flown 190 really gives me a hard time.

[BnZ]

BnZ ever since the airflow recode of.. what was it? 2.06? ... the 190s no longer flop below 180mph. They're no spitfires but the airflow bug has been fixed and they are much more "normal" along with the 109s. Definitely not the friend of slow speeds, but able to hold on better.

I didn't say it was flopping, I said it was wallowing, as in with a D9's  rate and radius of turn at that speed, a P-51 with 1-2 notchs of flaps will usually have gotten behind and shot it before the D9 can pop those flaps in some attempt to "out-turn" the Pony. Like I said to Steve, I wasn't citing "out turn a P-51D using full flaps" as a practical D9 technique, only as an oddity.

And btw, I never said the P-51D should "out-turn" the 109 in any absolute terms, only that perhaps it should be a bit closer than it is.

Also, don't compare full flaps. Full flaps were NEVER used in combat. This is a major problem in Aces High, in that they are hyper-abused in almost every fight. They don't have nearly as much detriment to high-G turns as they should. Split flaps should have no benefit on spitfires but they do, and they make P-40s into a6ms for a short period of time.

Look at the "no flaps" turn radii here:

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p51d&p2=p51b&p3=p47d40&p4=190d9

You'll see the "no flaps" is about right. The problem is only in how AH implements flaps and how players abuse it to get easier kills.

I agree with you Krusty, but things as they are is what we deal with, including full-flap usage. At least until they get rid of auto-retracting flaps, and we start jamming/tearing the buggers off more. Sounds like we are almost on the same page on that.

[BaldEagl]

I agree with you Krusty... Sounds like we are almost on the same page...

What are these BBs coming to?   

[Chalenge]

I cant say a La7 or Spit 16 can really give a P51D trouble as long as they are the only two around. I have trouble with 16s only when there is a faster plane around that forces a turn fight to happen against the 16. If you dont know what I mean you have never been there. Otherwise the only plane that really gives me fits is the Temp but not many of the people that fly it actually fly it well so not all of them are trouble. A 190 can usually be beaten unless he has alt advantage and yes I do fight them up above 20k on occasion (I love escort duties) and they usually figure out real fast they need to leave.

[Anaxogoras]

Don't you think the other late war rides are better? IMHO, the k4, LA7, D9, 152, spixteen, are all better planes than either pony.

Steve, you should fly the 109K-4 more often.  I try my best in the K-4, but I still find it far easier to kill with the P-51D because of the great ballistics, high speed maneuverability, and superb e retention.