Please Explain.......

[Dadsguns]

I am completely lost how ENY really works. 

This is an example from two different maps, I could be completely wrong here but comparing them its seems completely off in regards to the ENY imposed due to ratio of players versus in flight between the two maps, yet one side has a much higher ENY than another.

Can anyone explain ENY to me from someone that really has some knowledge of ENY, I am just trying to understand clearly how it works.
Not sure where I am supposed to post this question.

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/nikomon/onlytherookenv.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k213/nikomon/rookBSenvy.jpg

[Murdr]

It is based on the total number of pilots on the rosters, not the numbers in flight. 

The difference in the screenshots is the relative disparity between the lowest numbered country vs the other 2 respectively.  In one screenshot Rooks have a 12.3% advantage over the lowest country.  In the next, bishops have an 18.7% advantage and concequently have a higher ENY limit even though the percentage of the high countries are almost identical between the two screenshots.  In that same image, the rooks have a 15.3% advantage over the small country and are also subject to ENY limits.

HiTech posted the code for it in this thread

[Dadsguns]

It is based on the total number of pilots on the rosters, not the numbers in flight. 

The difference in the screenshots is the relative disparity between the lowest numbered country vs the other 2 respectively.  In one screenshot Rooks have a 12.3% advantage over the lowest country.  In the next, bishops have an 18.7% advantage and concequently have a higher ENY limit even though the percentage of the high countries are almost identical between the two screenshots.  In that same image, the rooks have a 15.3% advantage over the small country and are also subject to ENY limits.

HiTech posted the code for it in this thread

The code does not tell me what eny means, hence code.
However if you break down the numbers from each one, even though the percentages are fairly close, there is a dramatic eny difference.  Why?
I understand that ENY comes from players in country, not in flight.

                Country Cnt   Inflight Waiting   %Total Min-Eny
Example 1. Bishops   178   127        0        28.5%    0.0
               Knights   192   139        0        30.7%     0.0
               Rooks     255    185       0        40.8%     3.7

Example 2. Bishops   72     44         0        40.7%    13.8
               Knights   39      31        0        22.0%     0.0
               Rooks     66      49         0        37.3%     8.4

Example 1 has a 40.8% and a 3.7 eny
Example 2 has a 40.7% and a 13.8 eny

Example 1. - 77 players difference, which imposes a 3.7 eny.
Example 2. - 33 players difference, which imposes a 13.8 eny


Nothing about this adds up to me and does not appear to be proportional. 
I would have thought that a stiff eny would apply to a 77 player advantage since a 13.8 eny is applied against a 33 player advantage.

[BaldEagl]

It based on the difference compared to the smallest country.  Using your example:

 Country Cnt   Inflight Waiting   %Total Min-Eny
Example 1. Bishops   178   127        0        28.5%    0.0
               Knights   192   139        0        30.7%     0.0 = 8% larger than Bish
               Rooks     255    185       0        40.8%     3.7 = 43% larger than Bish

Example 2. Bishops   72     44         0        40.7%    13.8 = 85% larger than Knights
               Knights   39      31        0        22.0%     0.0
               Rooks     66      49         0        37.3%     8.4 = 69% larger than Knights

8% larger = no ENY
43% larger = 3.7 ENY
69% larger = 8.4 ENY
85% larger = 13.8 ENY

To calculate:  (Bigger Country #'s - Smaller Country #'s)/Smaller country #'s.

[Lusche]

The code does not tell me what eny means, hence code.
However if you break down the numbers from each one, even though the percentages are fairly close, there is a dramatic eny difference.  Why?
I understand that ENY comes from players in country, not in flight.

                Country Cnt   Inflight Waiting   %Total Min-Eny
Example 1. Bishops   178   127        0        28.5%    0.0
               Knights   192   139        0        30.7%     0.0
               Rooks     255    185       0        40.8%     3.7

Example 2. Bishops   72     44         0        40.7%    13.8
               Knights   39      31        0        22.0%     0.0
               Rooks     66      49         0        37.3%     8.4

Example 1 has a 40.8% and a 3.7 eny
Example 2 has a 40.7% and a 13.8 eny

Example 1. - 77 players difference, which imposes a 3.7 eny.
Example 2. - 33 players difference, which imposes a 13.8 eny


Nothing about this adds up to me and does not appear to be proportional. 
I would have thought that a stiff eny would apply to a 77 player advantage since a 13.8 eny is applied against a 33 player advantage.

You are still looking too much at absolute values without taking relative numbers into account.
First, a 77 players "advantage" can be much less than a 33 player "advantage" depending on overall numbers.
Extreme example :
277 to 200 players = 77 more = 39% more.
66 to 33 players = 33 more = 100% more.

As already stated, the ENY limit imposed on your country is:
YOUR % of players directly compared to SMALLEST country % of players.
In you example above its 40.8% to 28.5% (43% more players) and 40.7% to 22% (85%) more players. You see, 85% vs 43% more players is almost double the advantage. Hence resulting in 13.7 ENY vs 3.7 ENY

Overall, once your country's relative advantage over lowest number country gets to ~40% ENY limiter starts to kick in, getting quickly stronger the bigger your advantage gets.


And contrary to popular opinion, it's indeed the very same formula & effects for every country. Players just tend to notice ENY limiter only when its applied against them[/]... very much like the perceived "We (Knights/Bish/Rook) are always getting ganged!"

[The Fugitive]

                Country Cnt   Inflight Waiting   %Total Min-Eny
Example 1. Bishops   178   127        0        28.5%    0.0
               Knights   192   139        0        30.7%     0.0
               Rooks     255    185       0        40.8%     3.7

Example 2. Bishops   72     44         0        40.7%    13.8
               Knights   39      31        0        22.0%     0.0
               Rooks     66      49         0        37.3%     8.4

To me, in the first example Rooks out number the Bish 1.4 to 1, in the second its almost 2 to 1 Bish vs Knits so you get a higher ENY

[Dadsguns]

The formula is handy to help understand the percentages :
To calculate:  (Bigger Country #'s - Smaller Country #'s)/Smaller country #'s.

When you get to 40% eny kicks in, is there a set scale for it as it increases per each percent, example
1% -40%  = no ENY
40%  = 3.7 ENY
41%  = 3.8 ENY
42%  = 3.9 ENY and so forth.....until you get to the highest eny of 29? 
What would be the percent peak for 29 eny?  /   ??%> = 29 ENY

You are still looking too much at absolute values without taking relative numbers into account.
First, a 77 players "advantage" can be much less than a 33 player "advantage" depending on overall numbers.
Extreme example :
277 to 200 players = 77 more = 39% more.
66 to 33 players = 33 more = 100% more.

And contrary to popular opinion, it's indeed the very same formula & effects for every country. Players just tend to notice ENY limiter only when its applied against them[/]... very much like the perceived "We (Knights/Bish/Rook) are always getting ganged!"

Lusche,
Contrary to your opinion, absolute values is exactly what people are basing their opinions of eny from since this is what they know and see, this is to clarify not only to myself, but to those that do not know specifically how it works.  Most people will look at 77 more people on a side would indeed have more of an advantage in a game than 33 more, no matter what the percentage works out to be. 
So, please keep opinions out of it, and lets keep to the facts of what this discussion is all about. Just ENY.

[Murdr]

Opinion is "most people" think.  Fact is how country balance actually works.  Which repliers are trying to communicate.

[Lusche]

Lusche,
Contrary to your opinion, absolute values is exactly what people are basing their opinions of eny from since this is what they know and see.

This is absolutely not contrary to my opinion. I think I made it pretty clear. I explained how ENY works, and why many players seem to misunderstand ENY limiter. Pointing out where misconceptions may arise from does often help to make clear how things do really work.

[BaldEagl]

The formula is handy to help understand the percentages :
To calculate:  (Bigger Country #'s - Smaller Country #'s)/Smaller country #'s.

When you get to 40% eny kicks in, is there a set scale for it as it increases per each percent, example
1% -40%  = no ENY
40%  = 3.7 ENY
41%  = 3.8 ENY
42%  = 3.9 ENY and so forth.....until you get to the highest eny of 29? 
What would be the percent peak for 29 eny?  /   ??%> = 29 ENY

I'm sure there is a scale although I don't know what it is.  I suspect it is not linear but rather based on a curve looking at the example I posted above.

I'm sure someone smarter than me could calculate the curve based off of these numbers:

8% larger = no ENY
43% larger = 3.7 ENY
69% larger = 8.4 ENY
85% larger = 13.8 ENY

Glad to see that you at least understand now why it is the way it is though.

[Murdr]

Lusche,
Contrary to your opinion, absolute values is exactly what people are basing their opinions of eny from since this is what they know and see, this is to clarify not only to myself, but to those that do not know specifically how it works.  Most people will look at 77 more people on a side would indeed have more of an advantage in a game than 33 more, no matter what the percentage works out to be. 
So, please keep opinions out of it, and lets keep to the facts of what this discussion is all about. Just ENY.

I understand that this thread was started elsewhere and moved here.  However this is the Help and Training board.  This is the only public board on the entire forum where by default, a post by a Trainer should always be assumed to be as in an official capacity as a Trainer.  Unlike gameplay, tacticts, or "style" topics, game mechanics are a known quantity.    Game mechanics are what they are, and the Trainers put a lot of effort into staying up to date on the many game mechanic systems in AH.  I'd appreciate you not suggesting how Trainers should reply on a topic in H&T when you were the one asking for the information to begin with.

[Murdr]

I'm sure there is a scale although I don't know what it is.  I suspect it is not linear but rather based on a curve looking at the example I posted above.

This is the graph example that HiTech posted though it is from 2004 showing a linear scale, with the smallest country having 100 players.  I am not aware of any changes since then that would make it non-linear.

The numbers are just an example. It depends on the percentage wrather than numbers. I.E. take the player count in the small country , then divide your country by the smallest. I.E. int this example smallest is 100.

So if your country has 135 it would be 135/100.


HiTech

[Dadsguns]

Your correct, I have asked for just that, information. Nothing more.

Thank you for being informative and clear with your explanation of this subject without getting off topic.
  
So, up to this point many of us should have a better understanding of how it works, the only questions that remains is how does the scale progress for each percentage up to the max of 29 eny.

I'm sure there is a scale although I don't know what it is.  I suspect it is not linear but rather based on a curve looking at the example I posted above.

I'm sure someone smarter than me could calculate the curve based off of these numbers:

8% larger = no ENY
43% larger = 3.7 ENY
69% larger = 8.4 ENY
85% larger = 13.8 ENY

EDIT: I see your graph below.

The increase in eny increments of percent/players are not clear, however I do understand the concept. 
My question specifically would be as shown above.  What values would corresponde with percentages as the scale increased?

[Murdr]

Here you go.  I went with the metric I used in my first post, which was to simply deduct the lowest "%Total" from the country you're comparing with since the country percentages are what is available from the clipboard.  I plotted data from your screenshots, and extended them to min and max values.

[Dadsguns]

The increase in eny increments of percent/players are not clear.  I understand the increase concept, yet the graph still does not define clearly and specifically what values would correspond with percentages as the scale increased.

Or are you saying that the increments are reflected as according to this:
8% larger = no ENY
43% larger = 3.7 ENY
69% larger = 8.4 ENY
85% larger = 13.8 ENY

I was looking for something more specific as to show beginning with 40%= "what eny", 41%="what eny" etc etc..... all the way to the highest eny that can be applied according to corresponding percentage, I assume the known ending eny is 29, I could be wrong there.
What we dont know is the corresponding "%" and eny from 40% to (whatever would give you the hightest applicable eny and greater %)

I hope that isn't too confusing.