Its tested, Hispano is too powerful tank killer

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Toad:

Rather than wasting more time testing, I'll propose a challenge:

Why don't you "Hispano Howlers" try to find something that the Hispano will do that the Mauser won't do that can be checked and repeated in a standardized way.

Hush, I am talking here about Hispano vs. MG151/20 against tanks, not against planes.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
After all, we agree the FW's CAN'T a tank..

But I really cant agree that Hispano is high rate of fire 50mm with laser velocity and FW some useless toy against tanks.

Yay.. I love those Hispanos wrecking tanks on one pass even from ahead without hitting top and FW just tickling those from behind from high or low angle, whatever you want.

[Toad]

OK, let's talk turbolasers.

MG 151/20 (115 g) 740 rpm 710 m/s
MG 151/20 ( 92 g) 740 rpm 800 m/s
MK 108 (312 g) 600 rpm 505 m/s
Hispano Mk.II(130 g) 600 rpm 880 m/s

Turbo: High ROF  The MG 151 would win except for the interrupter that keeps it from shooting it's prop off, right? So we agree that the Hispano has a higher effective ROF?

Laser: High Speed, Good Trajectory  The Hispano is higher speed and better trajectory so it wins here too?

Then it is a TurboLaser?

Well, if so, it's not HTC's fault. You guys are defining "turbolaser" as anything that has historical, documented higher performance than the MG 151.

So anything that was historically better than the LW equipment is just not fair, right?

You Loose Waffles are soooooo funny.

[Cobra]

Whoa there!!!....When did facts and data become important??......(walks off wondering what this world is coming to, when arguments need facts to support them)

[Zigrat]

I have flown both types.
I do NOT believe any longer that the A2A hitting power of hispanos is exagerated. I think they are still slightly stronger than hispanos and they should be!

I can kill airplanes easy with mausers. The problem IMHO is dispersion, it seems the hispanos have less "randomness" in that they fly in a tighter cone with the mausers "scatering" more. This effect is not apparent <400 yards, but it makes long range sniping (>d600) much harder in the 190 then f4u, but i dont have a real problem with this.

Right now, my #1 problem is tanks. Hispanos kill tanks too easy IMHO. You dont need to use rear attacks or anything, just point and click.

Please note I am NOT saying that mausers should be more effective versus tanks: im NOT. Just saying hispanos armor penetration capability should be adjusted lower (again IMHO) so that only rear and top attacks are effective. Right now hispanos are effective versus tanks from any angle.

[RAM]

Definition of Turbolaser:
Standard laser in Imperial Star Destroyers and ships like them (Calamari Cruisers, Executor Super Star Destroyer, Death Star...)

Now seriously.

In AH F4UC has turbolasers That data you put there was really impressive, yes yes...but still 160Grams of WHAT? if it is of AP round then I still say that the lighter 20mm round in Mauser MUST do higher damage than Hispanos.

If it is a HE round then The A2A damage is correct, but the antiTank power isnt.

And dont screw with numbers, man. A 20mm mauser round doesnt need to go too fast to do fatal damage. They EXPLODE...(BUM! PUM! PLAAF! you get the idea?  ). Hispanos AP rounds PENETRATE and the explosion is minimal compared with HE.

If its AP then the A2A damage is way over what it should be. If it is HE then those rounds should bounce on tanks just as Mk108's.

[Karnak]

I say that HTC should set the Hispano's data to match the data for the Browning .303 so we don't have to listen to the LWs whine about it forever.  

Not that that would stop them from whining, they'd just have to switch subjects.  Something like this perhaps?  :

"I was shot down by a Barbiefire last night.  Those dweebs who fly those overmodeled things are jerks.  The Spit9 couldn't possibly shoot down anything designed by Kurt Tank or Wiley Messerschmitt.  HTC needs to fix those things."  

Or:

"That Runstang that got me was going too fast.  Everybody knows that the Americans can design refrigerators but not aircraft."  

Maybe:

"That Cannonhawg is too Ubėr.  Whay do all of the online sims overmodel the allied stuff?  Probably because they're biased against the German fighters.  I mean, these allied fighters are fly-by-wire rockets compared to our fighters.  I can't even get my 109G-10 to go 460 in level flight."  

Sisu
-Karnak

[Dnil]

Couple questions.

1.  When fired does the round know what kind of target it hits?  or 2) is the round just modelled as a round, with all values the same no matter what the target.


If its #2 then by default the hispano is MUCH more powerful then anything else.  So the argument for turbolasers against tanks is correct,  its an immensely powerful weapon.  I hate to admit it but RAM is probably right, if its HE modelled then it shouldnt pop tanks they way it does.  If its AP then it would BLOW  through all parts of the plane leaving neat holes.  

If its #1 then its just plain wrong.

I just have doubts about its anti tank ability.  also has this been tested with the spits and the n1ks to see how they do against tanks.  By the tests so far the spits mounting just 2 of these beasts should be half as effective on tanks.  

do they model alternating HE, AP rounds?


------------------
Dnil
JG-2
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Dnil:
I hate to admit it but RAM is probably right

Huh?

Thanks Dnil. When I really feel sad I say it and that phrase has set me sad. To hear that from an ex squaddie is really hurting.

So thank you.  

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Fishu:

The 20mm and 30mm I referred to was the german ammo not the hispano.

The 20mm hispano acts like an anti tank gun because it's really kind of built like one. While _1_ 20mm 198 gram shell at 800 someodd fps wouldn't even tickle a tank when 5 or 6 arrive almost at the same time in the same place entire portions of plate get bent, cracked and blown off like canvas. THAT is why hispano works.
Now .50 cal has the velocity but lacks the weight and explosive needed to replicate this. Thus .50's are just as harmless to tanks as mausers unless you get somewhere thin and at close to zero deflection.
So in effect, your points are just pointless fishu- you cannot make german 20 and 30mm ammo do something they never did. And you can't say hispano didn't do it either- historically we KNOW it was incredibly effective. And in comparison we know ShVAK was almost useless against tanks too, yet 23mm, which has almost the EXACT SAME performance of hispano worked incredibly well in the Il-2 and Yak-9T.

Ram- as for a2a I just don't get what your trying to prove- that a 198 gram shell travelling almost 1/3 faster doesn't have a flatter trajectory and deliver more boom per hit? Look at guncams of Hurricanes shooting down german bombers- the german planes just disappear when the shell stream touches them.
I am sure those crews felt hispano was WAAAY overmodelled  

[Fishu]

Oh joy.. I was having little fun, scored 4 panzers in a flight and 2 m16s in F4u-1c.

But I haven't yet complained at all about Hispanos air to air stopping power, but you guys whine it over and over - IMO. Hispano A2A is fairly good now, it is not too powerful when I hit poor 109's left wing with 4 or 5 hispano rounds and it didnt go apart (I only got piece of it too when someone ripped that wing off with one more round)

I am fairly happy with all guns air to air lethalities now, but not at all with tank lethalities.

LOL, I used 60 rounds into the front plate of panzer with F4u-1c and it blew up!  

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
And in comparison we know ShVAK was almost useless against tanks too, yet 23mm, which has almost the EXACT SAME performance of hispano worked incredibly well in the Il-2 and Yak-9T.

and thats the 23mm I am talking of, and it is far better than Hispano if we talk about its punch.

Though, I wonder, why did they give Pz-IVH against these 44 monsters, when Panther or Tiger would been more likely?
Tiger and Panther was manufactured in '43 *already*

Only 1944 birds for germans are 190A-8, which is very much useless if you want to stop a fighter attack and Bf109G10, which is over usage of old model.

Though, I am amazed they gave us Ostwind which werent too widely manufactured.
I also heard we're going to get Ju-88 A-4, that puts me wonder again that why not more later Ju-88, that falls again behind 1944 stantards (more food for the allies)

Now.. lets see what cool 1944 stuff allies has...
P51D, P47D (in two pieces!), F4u (ALSO two) and P38L. (not to forget top of line bomber, B-17G) (okey, all might not been 44 but late 43)
and even japs got their N1K2 which is also beyond 1944 and too good at it.

All right.. again little aggression let out.

[Karnak]

Why then Fishu do the LWs attack the RAFs so aggressively when we try to get the Spitfire XIV and Fw190D-9 in AH?

Why, because the LWs only want German stuff.  They don't seem to think that any other nation's fighters should be modeled.  They maintain that the Fw190D-9 would clean up against Spitfire XIVs, but the demand that the Spitfire be perked if it is added while the Fw190D-9 should be free choice (except RAM, who is quite consistant in his belief that the XIV would be dominant).

Fishu,
you complain that the Germans only have 2 1944 aircraft.  Well, they also have 3 1943 aircraft.  The RAF doesn't have any '43 or '44 aircraft.  The Spit IX, while very good for a '42 aircraft, has a hell of a time surviving in MA with anybody other than an expert at the controls.  The Spit IX in the hands of somebody, like me, who isn't very good at maintaining energy has to win or it dies.

Anyway, to get this back on the subject, what the Luftwaffe needs here is a Henschel Hs129B-3/Wa which was armed with a PaK 40 anti-tank gun.  The PaK 40 was a 75mm cannon that fired a 7-lb, tungsten-carbide cored projectile at 933 meters per second.  At 1000 meters it could penetrate 133mm of armor if it hit square on.  Unfortunately the Hs129 only cared 26 rounds of ammo with a rate of fire of 40 per minute.

So, give the Luftwaffe the Hs129B-3/Wa and the VVS the Il-2 or Il-10 and we've got ourselves more than enough firepower when you add in the Typhoon and F4U-1C to make that poor Panzer IV's life absolute hell.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Ghosth]

All right now for the tankers perspective.
While I may not have the time in Tanks that Caveman, 3 fingers, or Cit do. I have spent a lot of time in them.

Spits, F4U-C's, & typhoons will all kill tanks. Agreed, they should, historicaly the 20mm Hispano's did it, they should do it here. Wonderful

20mm Mausers didn't do it, they don't do it here. COOL!

.50's rattle like tin from p47's all day with no damage. Right on!

Are Hispano's then turbo lazers? Not in my opinon. Do Mausers cannon work? Well I don't know about yours, but the way my scores gone up this TOD flyig the 190A5 I'd darn well say so.

If there is ANYHING that needs to be fixed (and IMHO I'm not sure there is) it's the frontal armor penitration on tanks. But, how can you prove with a front aspect shot that your really hitting the front armor, instead of the turret gear, drivers slit, or some other vulnerable part?

To my mind 1.03 has come the closest to tanks historic lethality from plane attacks that I've seen yet. Bomb blast radius seems a bit small yet as far as tanks damage is concerned. (I've been stuck in craters from all the bombs dropped on me but no damage) But it may well be a balance issue and it's one I have no problem with.  

Perhaps what we really need instead of endlessly debateing details on cannon is dedicated anti tank plane. JU-87G with twin 37mm, or P39D with it's 37mm. B25H with 75mm Howitzer in nose certainly should take a tank down! Something that when a tank see's it knows that it's in trouble. (Ok we already have that in the F4U-c but humor me   )

Not that I'm promoting another US plane (Cause I'm not) I'd much rather see IJN & russian planesets brought up to par.

But thats pyro's problem not mine.

Long & short of it is tanks are surviveable.
They can be killed with a determined attack.

To me that 40mm AA Gun that nails me from d2? with 2 hits is a far bigger problem. Where did it come from? What fields have it? Is it on the maps? How do I kill that thing? Ussually I'm dead before I release there is a problem.

------------------
Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels

 

[This message has been edited by Ghosth (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Toad]

Seems I read somewhere that Pyro said the Hispano has mixed HE/AP ammo in the loadouts.

Not sure though.