190 performance vs the way its being flown

[Vulcan]

OK, I've been blacklisted as Allied by the LW bunch.

Now everyone knows I fly the tiffie and have done for some time. So stepping into a 190 cockpit for the first time in a LONG time heres what happened:

Vulcan has 12 kills and has been killed 7 times in the Fw 190A-8.
Vulcan has 37 kills and has been killed 11 times in the fw190A-5.
Vulcan has 11 kills and has been killed 3 times in the Fw 190D-9.

Now I'm no great stick. There are plenty of people that can hand my arse back to me sliced diced and minced in the MA. So I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet.

Personally, judging from the LW rollrate whines I think you guys are flying the 190s wrong. I think the roll rate is being overused. Not enough setup is done, and not enough vertical is used. Your scissors are too fast and e-burning.

The tiffie has taught me much, and with the new roll will teach me more.

[SeaWulfe]

Lesson Number 1: "How to be a good 190 piolet"

Fly more than just the 190, to get an idea of the performance and quirks of other planes. Use energy conserving scissors manuevers, and reversals by reducing the throttle.

I could teach more, but I'm having too much fun killing LWs using their own planes! <G>
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

Oh! Was that! Then it is me and my poor flying and not the 190 itself. Thanks Vulcan, now I can rest in pace...

About vertical moves:
- 190 is a very poor if not the worst zoom climber in AH.
- 190A series are the worst substained climbers at any altitude, except 0 - 1mm.

About energy conserving scissors:
They are useful only against very green pilots. Trying effective scissors brings two "little" problems to the table: First, in 190, if you "touch" the joy the E evaporates. Second, actuall roll rate is not enough to compensate the brutal loose of E.

About reversals:
While you can reverse in a second with a HogC loosing minimal E (you will be not disturbed by the horn at any point), trying the same with 190 is just stopping in the middle of the air, lossing almost all control response and an ethernity to recover a decent combat E.

Anyway, I agree, it should be me and my flying hability (NULL).

And I prefer not to post here my 190 stats, too long for a single post since first tour.

And finaly, yep, I have a very precise idea of the performance and quirks of other planes. While not flying them very much in MA, I do a lot of test with them offline. Yes, I now the existing E management abyss between any 190 and a SpitIX/La7/F4U/Nikki.

Thinking that the problem is in the pilots, being most of them experts since first tours is the most simplistic way to solve the "feeling" problem.

[SeaWulfe]

It does come down to knowledge of advanced air combat manuevers and inventing some of your own stuff.

I think it's hilarious these self-proclaimed "experten" and self-appointed "Herr Hauptmann von EversinkUselessUndUnderModell edUndLackingInEveryAspectBeca useVeSaySoUndWeAreZeBestButOu rPlanesAreZeWorst" running around crying about how their plane rolls 6% slower than it did in some tests because they keep getting shot down due to HUA syndrome.

Does flying LW aircraft mean that you must have a super-inflated ego that is accompanied by an uncomprehensible amount of ignorance towards their own ability?

Puhleeze.... the 190 isn't broke... you are!
-SW

[Wingnut_0]

Does being you mean you have to be a dick?  


And no I haven't made any post about 190 rollrate.

[DB603]

S!

 LW guys being bashed   Oh well..about big ego.U need that in MA,adds some color to it About 190,especially Dora.Fight like P51's used to..hit&run..err..extend.Use alt advantage etc. common crap Only feasible 190 to survive a dogfight with a good pilot behind the stick is 190A-5.190 is no beginners plane like 109 either.Allied aluminum coffins are easier to fly and have beefier guns.If Ya can't live up to the challenge flying LW planes,then go Allied and stop whining  




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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

[R4M]

Seawulfe, you are so full of toejam that it must hurt. Really. You are FULL of it.

And no, I dont complain too much about the lack of rollrate on the 190. I frankly am more concerned that EVERY other plane, exception made now of the typhoon, has better rollrate than what it should while the 190 has worse.

In any case my worse complain about the 190 are its guns. They are woefully bad compared with any other weapon in AH regarding ballistics and dispersion, and are not that good in hitting power either.


[edit]Oh, and BTW, 6% my ASS. the 190 has between 15 and 10% worse rollrate than what it should have between 200 and 250mph, while at those speeds almost all the other planes have significantly better rollrates at those speeds.

 Is like if I get a 109G10, I cut its climbrate by 10-15% (470-520fpm), and then I add 300fpm to ALL the other planes in AH's planeset. The G10 would still have the advantage, but would be SEVERELY hampered it its strongest feature: the sustained climbrate.

Or, better, why dont we get a P51, we cut its speed by 43-47mph and then we put a top speed of 20mph over the real numbers for the rest of the planes in AH?. That would rock, huh?. Yeah, right I guess it would.

And If the G10 thing happened I'm sure that you, SW could come here saying that how weenies we are because the 109G10 "only" climbs 500fpm less than what it should. As I said, you are so full of it that it must hurt.[/edit]

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 06-04-2001).]

[MANDOBLE]

SeaWulfe, first time I thought it was due my poor english, but no, my expresion is crystal clear:
"...being most of them experts since first tours..."

If someone has been here flying P51 since the beta, he will surelly be an expert in this plane. Hard to understand? No, It cant be...

Expressions like:
"I think it's hilarious these self-proclaimed "experten" and self-appointed ..." are absolutelly out of context. And if someone has a super-inflated ego he will go for Spit, nikki or any other "unbeatable" plane.

[StSanta]

StSanta has 71 kills and has been killed 10 times in the Fw 190A-8.

Yeah, us LW types are flying the 190s wrong  .

Performance in the 190 for me depends on two things: a) how bored I am and b) if it's the cv map, my K/D goes into half because I tend to follow ack huggers all the way to their cv, wanting to show 'um that ack hugging ain't the way  .

So, the 190s roll a bit too slow at medium speeds. The tiffie rolled too fast, and other allied planes too fast as well. These are facts backed up by NACA reports. Let's keep it to that.

And Vulcan, flying the occasional LW plane doesn't make ya any less of an allied whiney peasant flyboy relying on laserspanos for kills  



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Baron StSanta Von GrossenArsch

[hazed-]

I intended to fly allied for my last bit of time on AH to see if my perception of the ease of flying them and the guns was correct in any way.

well considering i havent flown much allied stuff for months and never relly flew any of them to the extent i fly the 190s, i managed to equal my best k/d ratios improve my hit% and discovered some strange querks which im would like you to test.
My main interest? test the guns.Hispanos: its a F*&king joke how much easier they are to kill with than mg151s,(especially how weak they are on the dora).They were really like this? if they were id like to know why there is not more mentions of the difference in the countless books ive read.Sure i know the velocity/ ROF was different but their equally destructive power can not be questioned.If they werent like they are in AH what can we do? i dont unfortunately have both guns to test em but i sure know 'WHO' id like to test em on (SW      ).
I tried to fly objectively and have come to a simple conclusion.If i flew the same hours in allied planes as i do in 190s i think my kills would most likely increase and my accuracy would improve without much effort.
It was incredibly simple to rack up kills with those 50 calibres also.Admittedly on some occations,strangely usually close in the 50s seemed to need quite a few hits but at 700-1.1 you could spray and get the odd hit that seemed to do substantial damage(ie wings off, engines killed).It just seemed unpredictable.I can undderstand when allied guys say you need to stay on target with them because i needed to do that once or twice, hitting in a pass with a close 300 shot seemed to do nothing but after a loop over and shot from 900 with 2 pings i took a wing off      . This was how they were? somehow it 'FEELS' wrong.
I flew a few sorties in as many allied planes as i could(sorry i refuse to test f4c etc,They are definately for those that dont want any challenge just kills).The so called hard done by p38 was pretty easy if you ask me,
Well basically to cut a long story short even with several discos (new patch caused lockups for me) I managed to maintain similar if not better k/d ratio and hit% than i could with 9 months of flying the  LW stuff.I averaged 2 kills per death which had it not been for the discos would have been better.
I flew quite carelessly,looking for fights regardless of advantage etc to test the guns more than anything......
p38 3 kills 1 death,p51d 2 kills no death,p47-d11 6 kills 2 deaths,tempest 6 kills 3 deaths(flying it like a loon      )Spitix 4 kills 2 deaths,typhoon 2 kills 1 death.
i couldnt get on with the p51b, i think i tried to fly it like a 109!       it isnt is it? <S> p51b pilots  
anyway this was 1 day, having not flown 1 allied plane for a month and precious few before that.
My honest opinion is they are'nt all easy to fly but hell they are'nt hard either are they?.If i could stand flying the p51d for a month i think id do pretty good.you have ample ammo,huge quantities of fuel and can escape 80% of the planes if in trouble and of course the easiest stream of bullets to aim.
the fact that i dont 'want' to fly it is a damn shame, i just dont like em like i do the 190,109,etc.So my choice is keep flying the LW stuff knowing they may be undermodelled (roll/weak guns?) whilst those i fight have more accuracy and hitting power or take a break and look elsewhere for fun.Shame really but seems ive reached breaking point.I dont enjoy it like i used to.
That and the fact i see no attempt at price reduction which i sencerely hoped HTC would try after they discussed it (after the cheap accounts fiasco).
Leaving it until WW2ol comes out before reducing ? who knows if WW2ol even enters the debate for HTC? i dont know but i suspect it does, as they and WB are competition.

HTC have the best online sim, theres no doubt there but they seem to be trying to cover too many bases, a bit of strategy,bit of realistic stuff here and there then concessions for some not others.I think its hard to predict where this game is going and i have just stayed as it unfolds but i still have no clue as to whether we are trying to make a huge furball type game or a war simulation? I know what id like to see and i think AH has gone the other way.
I thank HTC for opening my eyes to ACM and energy fighting etc, something i never took notice of before in any sim.HTC have truelly done their job of entertaining and i feel it was money well spent, its just ive felt let down by certain aspects of the game and now that ive decided to cancel im playing AH as it seems to be intended.On for a quick hour to get a fix then play something else.Well now it costs me too much for that kind of game.I can get that type free.(not as good  obviously!      )

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
StSanta has 71 kills and has been killed 10 times in the Fw 190A-8.

Yeah, us LW types are flying the 190s wrong   .

Quit that.. you'll break my record soon  

[SeaWulfe]

Really RAM, you need to quit talking out your ass.

As for the roll rate being a little less than it should, it's still a LOT faster than other planes.

Out scissored a YAK-9U last night, then shot him down in the 190A5 with full internal gas... Boy, that roll rate thing sure made the difference there!    

You gotta be kidding me, the only thing I've seen any of the so called "LW Experts" do with the roll rate in the 190s is flop around like a fish out of water.

10% faster isn't going to do much, just make you die with a cramp in your wrist from jacking your plane in every which direction until the guy chasing you gets bored of attempting to follow your flip flopping bellybutton across the sky.

RAM, why don't you quit again... maybe then they'll fix the 10% roll rate. YOu whined the hardest you could about the F4U-1C, hmmm come to think of it... everyone except for 2 people in this thread whined about the F4U-1C.

Wierd coincidence? I think not.  

As for Hazed's comments.. man you really need to open your eyes a bit wider.

Take a look at all the test data on various weapons. MG151 drops like a rock, therefore you need to adjust for that.

But wait! I thought this thread was about the 190's roll rate, somehow you managed to toss in something about weapons into it...

RAM, you are a dumb ass... making transparent guesses and utterly rediculous statements, then second guessing what I would do.

Roll rate does 1 thing, it allows your sorry bellybutton to stick stir all you want.

1.03FM was better right RAM? Hey! Remember that time you dove on me in that 190A5 of yours and I outflew you in a low, slow and loaded full of gas 205?

Get better, then come here and tell me the 10% "missing" from the 190's roll rate matters enough to be a whiney little bellybutton wipe.
-SW

[Vermillion]

 

My main interest? test the guns.Hispanos: its a F*&king joke how much easier they are to kill with than mg151s,(especially how weak they are on the dora).They were really like this?

Yes they were.

You have been shown actual test data and technical spec's over and over and over again. Some of it from American Sources, some from German sources, and some from Soviet sources (strange that they all agree, regardless of source).

If you choose not to believe it, fine.

But until you come up with some real data to refute the reams and reams of data that the current game is based upon, and not just your impression of how you think they should be, your just making yourself look like a "Luftwhiner".

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[MANDOBLE]

SeaWulfe, the 10% "missing" from the 190 and the 5 - 10% "extra" for the rest of the planes is an overal of 17%. IMO, a deviation of 17% is more than important, well, in fact, a deviation of only 10% in any factor is also critical. This is not a 1% or 2% this is near 20%. What about a 190 10% faster than it should be and a SpitIX 10% slower?

Second, read the thread topic, it is not related only to 190 "roll rate", but the way people use the 190, and weapon performances could be included into the discussion.

Third, publishing a deviation with hard and reliable data is not to whine. IMO this is more than good to improve the game fidelity.

Fourth, it seems that all your tricks'n tips are related to defense moves and to enter the combat with a significative advantage on E, and I agree, with our actual 190 not much more can be done. It is not very good marketing for a plane to know that 90% of the time you'll be on defensive unless you have lots of E more than the enemy. Suppose you agree with me that 190s are a "touch your stick, loose you E" plane.

[MANDOBLE]

Verm, agree with you about ROF and trajectory, but not about the noticeable difference in damage done.

As far as I know, the sources you mention confirm the hispano as an excelent gun, but having reliability problems and with ugly effects due vibrations while firing.

Those sources confirm also the 151/20 as a very reliable weapon with poor trajectory but same or better punch power than hispano against not armoured targets.

Anyway, I WHINE mostly about the 151 poor ROF mixed with net lag and micro-warps. We can learn to aim with that ugly bullet drop, but we can't learn to deal with buffs crossing in front of your bullet path without getting a single hit.