Cherry Picker

[Zazen13]

Say again on the development bit?  Seems like they figured out with the F4 that being able to turn was more valuable then flat out speed.  Adding slats to the F4E and S cut down speed but improved the turning ability.  The F14, 15, 16 and the reintroduction of guns were all a response to figuring out speed was not the only answer.  I would imagine that the F22, Eurofighter, and any of the latest Russian birds place emphasis on the ability to maneuver as well.

They got away from ACM for a while and it cost the USAF and USN big time in Vietnam until they got back into it.  

Too many in the AH crowd don't have a clue about ACM, which considering we don't really die, is just sad for an air combat game.

Maneuverability didn't cease to be a consideration at all, especially when aircraft design already afforded a wide speed differential in a particular theater of operation. However, maneuverability became a distant secondary if not tertiary consideration well after speed and the weapon system itself.

[Murdr]

Ok, there's my answer!  Cherry-Picker originates in AH itself.

Nope, your first theory was correct.  The term was in AW in the 90's.

There is nothing "wrong" with picking per se.  It is a perfectly valid and realistic tactic.  It's the social aspect of it that causes the rub.  It doesn't really take much skill to shoot down someone who is already occupied with other bogie(s).  There's a little bit involved (predicting the opportunity, timing and approach), but not much  If everyone involved is aware that it was just an easy kill by an otherwise skilled pilot, there's nothing to disagree about.  The stigma kicks in when the shooter has a self inflated sense of skill (eg. thinks that kill is equal to killing that same pilot 1v1), or when the depth of the shooters ability is limited to finding easy kills due to their lack of skills.

[Zazen13]

Nope, your first theory was correct.  The term was in AW in the 90's.

There is nothing "wrong" with picking per se.  It is a perfectly valid and realistic tactic.  It's the social aspect of it that causes the rub.  It doesn't really take much skill to shoot down someone who is already occupied with other bogie(s).  There's a little bit involved (predicting the opportunity, timing and approach), but not much  If everyone involved is aware that it was just an easy kill by an otherwise skilled pilot, there's nothing to disagree about.  The stigma kicks in when the shooter has a self inflated sense of skill, or when the depth of the shooters ability is limited to finding easy kills due to their lack of skills.

When approaching a furball and engaging I think of opportunities to cherrypick as "culling the herd". By destroying aircraft you reset them to the runway and a low energy state thereby improving the relative E advantage overall compared to your adversaries for all friendly fighters in your vicinity. A few people endowed with the ability and desire to do the "culling" proficiently have a HUGE effect on the ebb and flow of the air battle over time.

I don't think anyone would argue that most Cherrypicks wouldn't be eligible for a "Plays of the Week" video clip on Sportscenter. But, that's not the motivation for doing it. The motivation is to replane more maneuverable planes as quickly and efficiently as possible in order to give your teammates the upper hand in a protracted, pitched air battle.

[Guppy35]

LOL Zaz, what you just said, is you only fight from an advantage, and imply that you are doing the rest of us a favor by doing so.

That's just silly

[Zazen13]

LOL Zaz, what you just said, is you only fight from an advantage, and imply that you are doing the rest of us a favor by doing so.

That's just silly

I'm always at a maneuverability disadvantage. Not many aircraft commonly flown in the LW MA maneuver more poorly in general than the Typhoon. Truly, for example, if there's 10 of my team vs. 20 of the other team and they're getting close to vulch light green on my field, me cherrypicking the living crap out of the 20 enemy is doing my 10 brave lads a favor...

[Shuffler]

When confronted by a veritable sea of Spit16's, Nikis, Hurris and La7's keeping them at arm's length is precisely what you should do. Most complex engagements in AH are predominantly of that typical composition. To get deeply involved with them is to play "their game". The way to defeat them is to exploit energy and position to negate their numerical and maneuverability advantage. The art of doing that is not something everyone can do with a high degree of proficiency, if everyone could do it proficiently there wouldn't be a sea of Spit16's, Niki's, Hurris and La7s. There'd be a sea of Fw190s, Jugs, Typhoons and Ponies and we'd be playing an entirely different game.

People who are proficient at Cherrypicking are extremely valuable in a complex engagement, they have a force multiplication effect because not only are they destroying enemy fighters, they are saving other friendly fighters from destruction and less likely to be destroyed themselves in the process. So, a cherrypicker is at least twice as impactful in terms of the net effect on the ebb and flow of an air battle as the typical 1 vs. 1 duelist is.

Well normally the 80th is in the middle with our 38s. You'll never learn what any plane can do it you don't press it over the edge and back. I think we do pretty good. It is certainly not boring.

[VonMessa]

LOL Zaz, what you just said, is you only fight from an advantage, and imply that you are doing the rest of us a favor by doing so.

That's just silly

Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?

[Zazen13]

Well normally the 80th is in the middle with our 38s. You'll never learn what any plane can do it you don't press it over the edge and back. I think we do pretty good. It is certainly not boring.

No doubt, you guys have squeezed every last ounce of goodness out of the P38. But, you have a squadron comprised of some of the absolutely best 38 pilots in the game with a cumulative total over a 100+ years of online flight sim experience. An average player is not often afforded the luxury of wingmen of that high caliber, with a vested interest in his survival fighting in his area with him most of the time. So, what you guys are able to do is in no way, shape or form representative of what the average schmo's expectations would be in similar circumstances.

[Shuffler]

Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?

No.... but it must be rated as one of the most boring things on earth to do. That and when you do find yourself at a disadvantage your problems are multiplied.


Good Lord..... 100 years plus?? In our small Squad...... lol you may be right never thought about that. Where's that new carpal tunnel gear from CH.

[Murdr]

Is it therefore a "sin" to fight only from an advantage?

What would AH gameplay be like if everyone only chose to fight from an advantage?  (I hope the point came across loud and clear)

[Murdr]

No doubt, you guys have squeezed every last ounce of goodness out of the P38. ...So, what you guys are able to do is in no way, shape or form representative of what the average schmo's expectations would be in similar circumstances.

That was his point.  One does not learn to "squeeze every last ounce" out of their ride by purely hovering on a perch waiting to spot the next hapless victim.

[Zazen13]

No.... but it must be rated as one of the most boring things on earth to do. That and when you do find yourself at a disadvantage your problems are multiplied.

Everyone finds themselves at a disadvantage all the time. To think otherwise is stupid. I am one of the most tactically obsessed players ever to play this genre and I find myself fighting from the disadvantage at LEAST several times a flight. The only distinction is I do not go out of my way to place myself at a disadvantage. I simply end up there due to mitigating variables beyond my control as I go about killing.

[Murdr]

I am one of the most tactically obsessed players ever to play this genre

...And he's humble too 

[Zazen13]

That was his point.  One does not learn to "squeeze every last ounce" out of their ride by purely hovering on a perch waiting to spot the next hapless victim.

No one can do that. You have to get involved to get kills. Getting involved means making yourself vulnerable to some degree. People who ONLY sit on a perch and look for picks end up flying home kill-less 95% of the time or kill so infrequently as to render themselves tactically insignificant...

[Zazen13]

...And he's humble too 

I never said I was good at it, just obsessed with it... Hehe