Author Topic: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????  (Read 2123 times)

Offline Vulcan

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2009, 01:38:20 AM »
A mosque (The kuran books are set off and give secondary explosions):

Civilian houses, trucks and wine cellers. The wine explodes when hit.

Exploding wine and books? Ahhhahahahahahah now I've heard it all.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2009, 02:20:32 AM »
Everyone is up in arms about rockets flying into Israel and how that is bad, Lest you forget the US has fired missiles into Pakistan and killed even more people then the rockets from Gaza to Israel.

Did it ever seem like a good idea to fire rockets at Israel? No! Do you think they will figure it out? No!

WP (an area weapon) was designed for situations just like this so its the best weapon to use I guess.

I am sure if the US fired rockets into 'Pakistan' they had a good idea what target those rockets would hit. Every now and then they screw up. Okay...
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Offline Angus

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2009, 03:08:36 AM »
I love how all of the Arabs make a big deal about 900 deaths in Gaza after nearly 3 weeks of fighting.  Its all over the news and them screaming for vengeance and Jihad and all that good stuff....

But when nearly 3,000 American civilians lose their lives in a matter of mintues due to cowardly terrorist attacks, not a word is said except of celebration and praise for the Terrorists!!

I say they want a Jihad, then lets give em one!!  :rock

And the Palestinians cheered in the streets while burning the U.S. flag.
Not exactly the winning way of getting some sympathy now is it...
However, this one is a no-win. Every day now, both members look like bigger thugs, and the people are stuck between them. When this is over, the Hamas will be weaker, but you have a whole tribe of those who hate Israelis, - those who lost their loved ones.
Maybe they're planning on complete surrender, which in WW2 was the key after the conflict...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline bozon

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2009, 04:55:58 AM »
...
But killing 300+ innocents in a matter of weeks in response to what, 10-20 rocket attack deaths in the past 4 years?  But don't take this to mean I sympathize with the terrorists hiding among the dense civillian population.  Mothers on both sides of the fence are loosing thier children needlessly.
...
Then again, this convo has nothing to do with just discussing WP rounds anymore and is going to be all rhetoric and politics.
OK, lets try this equation: How many people would you agree to be killed in exchange for your son? 1? 10? 100? 1000? 1E+6?
I know that all humanity can burn in exchange to mine.

A government does however place value on the lives of its citizens. It has to. But when those 10-20 deaths are not do to an incident, but to a method, I want you to find the man to go and explain the mother why it was allowed to repeatedly attempt to kill her son until it finally worked. This is the difference between an incident and a pattern.

Does it make a difference if you kill 900 people in a year or in a day? of course it does. 900 people/year does not make the news, while 900/day is breaking news - that is it. For any of those 900 it does not matter if 899 others were killed and in what time frame.

Where am I going with this? It is the method of organizations such as Hamas and Hizballa to stage endless continuous small incidents, that will not make the world news and none is a cause for major retaliation. When finally the attacked state decides it will not take it any longer and decides to change the rules, what the world see is a "disproportionate" (what is that anyway?) response to the last minor incident, completely ignoring the very long sequence that lead to it. What was perceived as the cause for the 2006 Lebanon war is the kidnapping of the 2 (dead) Isreali soldiers, completely ignoring the 6 years in which Hizballa was staging attacks against Israel, every 3 months (almost clockwork) over the border marked by the UN (U is for Useless) in 2000. A government would like to break the pattern BEFORE its own dead count matches the one it will cause on the other side in order to break it. If there are going to be any killing done, it is better to be on the delivering and not the receiving end.

Regarding the WP, the whole accusation is idiotic. Israel does not stage area attacks on populations (unlike some good old western countries and not that long ago). If it did, it has far better ways to do it and it will not be a few reported incidents, it will be a total carnage. WP is used for other purposes and if civilians were injured by it than that is unfortunate, but not a goal. Collateral damage is inevitable, especially since this is what Hamas wants and tries to archive. The idea of legal "rules" to wars is problematic - "hits are allowed only to the body. The dead deserve an open casket funeral".
 
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Offline SirFrancis

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2009, 09:26:01 AM »
"White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????"

In no way, Saddam routinely used WP rounds in attacks against civilians.  :devil

More interesting the question if Israel is using DIME ammunition in Gaza?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 10:44:08 AM by SirFrancis »
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2009, 09:39:25 AM »
Maybe they're planning on complete surrender, which in WW2 was the key after the conflict...

Maybe they are planning on a Norwegian surrender where they give up all their territory and the government leaves, but they say they didn't actually surrender 60 years later?
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Offline Angus

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2009, 10:28:58 AM »
Nice troll there.
Norway fought on for 6 weeks after their capital AND all major towns fell, since they were captured dozing in the first day.
My point was the lessons From WWI repeated in Gulf War I. Peace is negotiated before complete capitulation, hence the later (or in Hussein's case, same) authorities start claiming they were not beaten. and that they would have won etc etc.
After Germany fell in WW2 and same with Japan, no such talk was abroad.
BTW, Norway never negotiated for peace. (They were offered to). But Denmark did. And so Did France, and Germany did in WWI...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Reschke

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2009, 05:07:49 PM »
Angus,

As I said I am all for total war in that respect. If you are going to fight then you fight...you don't tiptoe through the tulips when you go to shooting at someone. We did that in Viet Nam and it is being done again to a lesser extent in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just think of it this way...did the Allies pull any punches on the German or Japanese populace in WW2? Not to the extent of genocide but you can't worry about civilian casualties when you got to war. It is a bad thing but it happens.
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Offline Jappa52

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2009, 06:28:12 PM »
That does not make what Hamas is doing and has done all along anything other than terrorism. If some clown keeps throwing bricks at my house and in my yard, and the police do not respond, I'm going to respond, not in kind, but rather I will rapidly escalate things to a quick end. The fact that he's not killed any of my family yet is not going to change it either. My intentions will be to deal with him as quickly and harshly as is necessary to prevent him from ever doing it again.

It also does not change the fact that not only does Hamas commit terrorist acts on a constant and regular basis, but they also do so while hiding among civilians, and further, operating from or next to schools, hospitals, and mosques, doing so in a deliberate manner intended to cause maximum collateral damage in a retaliatory strike. Hamas intentionally gets their own people killed or maimed in an at least partially successful public relations campaign.

And finally, the inhabitants of Gaza evidently freely elected Hamas, a terrorist organization, as their government and their representative to the world. As such, all of those who voted, evidently overwhelmingly, to elect Hamas, must bear a large part of the responsibility, almost as large as Hamas itself, and certainly far larger than Israel.

Only the children get any real sympathy from me. And possibly some of the women.

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Offline -tronski-

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2009, 02:50:21 AM »
So innocent civilians are legitimate targets because of the actions and policies of their democratically elected govt?

Interesting...

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Offline moot

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2009, 03:03:30 AM »
You mean the govt could let its own people be harmed because it doesn't want "innocent" blood on its hands?
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Offline Angus

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2009, 03:15:09 AM »
Angus,

As I said I am all for total war in that respect. If you are going to fight then you fight...you don't tiptoe through the tulips when you go to shooting at someone. We did that in Viet Nam and it is being done again to a lesser extent in Iraq and Afghanistan. Just think of it this way...did the Allies pull any punches on the German or Japanese populace in WW2? Not to the extent of genocide but you can't worry about civilian casualties when you got to war. It is a bad thing but it happens.

We'll see how it goes. If it ends the conflict, its the better of two evils. Hundreds of casualties racked up in some weeks are "better" than thousands racked up in some years, if the thing comes to a stop.
And now Bin Laden has entered the scene and wants to play Muslims vs Cowboys. tsk tsk tsk....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline warhed

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2009, 03:16:59 AM »
Using fear and murder to get elected is "democratic?"

So innocent civilians are legitimate targets because of the actions and policies of their democratically elected govt?

Interesting...

 Tronsky
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Offline -tronski-

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2009, 04:48:35 AM »
You mean the govt could let its own people be harmed because it doesn't want "innocent" blood on its hands?

Well it would depend on which govt is getting the headlines wouldn't it.

Using fear and murder to get elected is "democratic?"


Is some places indeed it is...but it wasn't the case in the 2006 PA elections. Its a lot easier to win votes running a campaign based on percieved strength and defiance than maintaining the status quo with a beaten people.

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Offline warhed

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Re: White Phosphorus munitions a bad thing????
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2009, 05:09:08 AM »
Not rising up, or at the least, not speaking out about one's tyrannical, murderous government, is a crime of it's own in my opinion.
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