Author Topic: Turn the icon's off  (Read 3171 times)

Offline rabbidrabbit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3910
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2009, 12:51:36 PM »
Interesting idea, but the geezers and colorblind folks may have a hard time figuring out what's going on.

If you are color blind you will have no problem with grey scale.  Maybe folks will hotkey that zoom a bit more..  I find it handy already as I'm setting up an approach.  If you think about it, starting lighter grey and moving to dark/black is consistent with something getting closer so it should be pretty intuitive even if you don't read the help files.

Offline Sonicblu

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 653
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2009, 12:54:36 PM »
Hmmm, Some got it others did not.

We still have radar to know where eny are.

I would be fine with a modified icon system get rid of range and plane type would improve some aspects of game play imo.

Or leave range and plane type, and turn off red icon.

BTW i know you can turn off and on the icons. I don't pick from 20 k though I,m talking about the pilots that bnz. It makes it easy for them to pick out icons at a long range to pick over and over again as soon as they loose sight they would have to reevaluate the situation before making the next run. However now they just see  a low 109 at 6k and jump it again. MY thoughts are that if the icons were modified or off  and they lose sight by climbing back up out of sight and start to come back down and now see three planes one of which is a eny con two are friendlies they are going to have to make some better choices. So the dont blow them selves out of the sky by friendly kill shot.

Some of you made my exact point if they don't know and aren't communicating with pilots on their side they will blow themselves out of the sky by shooting their own team mate. Leave kill shoot on.

The ground doesn't have and icon nor does it need it I auger all the time and don't complain. It was my fault.

You shoot your bud out of the sky you deserve to die.

Yes we would see more squad type flying with the same plane types.

I get tired of getting picked by some bnz cherry picker because he can see my icon.
The pilot has to make a different set of choices when he is over a base with 20 cons and 20 friendlies not just
pick the red icons.

Turning on the icons at close range only, would help a little.

Hey guys I still like the game and enjoy playing overall. Its is lame some nights more that others though.

Just some suggestions


Offline Dawger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2009, 01:21:07 PM »
A soft colored halo outlining the airplane (red or green) ID's friend or foe and resolves the blending into the background issues.

No distance marker ever.  A variable rate flashing -/+ to indicate closure direction and relative velocity.

Id plane type at a range determined by aircraft size. Just take the smallest airframe in the game (109 I think is smallest) and scale ID distances out from that baseline. A 109 size airplane can be reliably identified at about 6000 feet in planform. Bigger is further.

Answers all the concerns of hardware differences and is much more realistic than the current system

Offline hammer

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2198
      • netAces
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2009, 01:43:49 PM »
A 109 size airplane can be reliably identified at about 6000 feet in planform.

What is the source for this distance? Anecdotal evidence suggests identification at much more than 1 1/4 miles with much less than a planform angle. Of course, knowing what the bad guys are flying helps identify things early, and there is also real and anecdotal evidence of pilots mis-identifying planes within gun range. I've never seen anything definitive and it's always an interesting discussion on this topic!

Regards,

Hammer
Hammer

JG11
(Temporarily Retired)

Offline FireDrgn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1115
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2009, 02:10:22 PM »
Ive posted in three differant threads and I believe it all comes down to Respect......  There is a lack of respect that you must have if pilots are going to have some 1v1 fights. Changing the icons would not force a more respectfull desision It would just make it harder for....lets be honest........90+% of the players......  Its only going to be fun for less than 10% of players like you and I that play the game for the 1v1..........


1v1 is just a dying breed of game play....Players like you and I will just move on in life like some of the other players have.  We are being effectively replaced with players with a differant mentality....Our problem is we hope it might change.... or  the pendulum will swing the other way...

I dont see it changing at all the pendulum is still swinging the other way.

I dont get anywere near the number of 1v1 i could get 3 years ago....200 is no were near as friendly as it used to be.....

Bottom line is there is no cure for the lack of respect for the 1v1..... Except  RESPECT....


<S>


"When the student is ready the teacher will appear."   I am not a teacher.

Offline LLogann

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4947
      • Candidz.com
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2009, 02:20:04 PM »
100% correct!  Somebody not so recently actually proved this. 
What is the source for this distance? Anecdotal evidence suggests identification at much more than 1 1/4 miles with much less than a planform angle.

And let us not forget those darn video cards.  Anybody asking for no icons must have a great card........... And if not....... They are just stupid.
See Rule #4
Now I only pay because of my friends.

Offline hammer

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2198
      • netAces
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2009, 02:39:27 PM »
100% correct!  Somebody not so recently actually proved this. 

I would also like to see how it was proved.

Regards,

Hammer
Hammer

JG11
(Temporarily Retired)

Offline FireDrgn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1115
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2009, 02:48:19 PM »
I wonder how many paying players have low end computers......
I just dont believe that most players have low end cmputers  that play ACES High......


What is anyones guess as to how much profit is in the `15.00 bucks for HTC.... mabye          2 or 3 dollars what would you guess???????????????? i bet they barely break even at the end of the month.......
"When the student is ready the teacher will appear."   I am not a teacher.

Offline Morpheus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10229
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2009, 03:11:20 PM »
LOL you want no icons why dont you go to Lockon with BVR radar and all the goodies that come along with it. Aim120s' and the R77s' just to name a couple fun spray and pray missles.
If you don't receive Jesus Christ, you don't receive the gift of righteousness.

Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2009, 03:19:18 PM »
I live under the landing pattern of a small airport. I get learjets and such passing over my backyard quite frequently. Even distant ones are far far FAR more identifiable than the 1-black-pixel that AH has.

It's NOT about graphics cards. It's NOT about the size of your monitor or the resolution.

The entire concept of showing visual representations at a distance on a PC is not even a fraction as accurate as the old Mk.I eyeball. Most planes in this game are a collection of 1 to 5 black pixels until well under 1000 yards. At that point you should already have identified the contact and positioned yourself to attack. Instead without icons you're worse than legally blind and cannot distinguish what the hell you're looking at unless it's a bomber with a 150-foot wingspan (and that's the exception to the rule, let's be honest).

It's NOT a matter of "having enough cool technology" -- because the game itself (and EVERY game in existence today) cannot represent what the human eye can at distances.

No icons represents what the folks that were kicked outta flight school for being unable to see would experience, not what really can be seen.

Offline daddog

  • Aces High CM Staff (Retired)
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15082
      • http://www.332nd.org
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2009, 03:32:15 PM »
Quote
Quote
A new icon system that preserves the nature of real world fights while correcting the limitations of the monitor would be an amazing...

This I agree with. I've often thought we should get limited info at long range - maybe a "1E" identifying the plane as a single engine type along with "2E" and "4E". You could then progress to plane type etc as range decreased.
I really like that idea. No doubt the high end systems would have a significant advantage with icons off using our current system.

Giving limited info according to range would be a nice way to go. To expand a bit on what hammer suggested:
- Info on number of engines (1E)
- Country type (Britian)
- Plane type (Spitfire)
- Plane model (Spit V)
- Range (300)

I would have to think about the transitions between the information and which info would remain, but others smarter than I could come up with something I am sure.

I have always wanted another icon option for special events. This would be a great addition to Friday Squad Operations or the Snapshots and any other events that wanted to use another icon option.

I remember several years back (for a very short period of time) HTC tried a different icon method. Did not last long, but I liked it.

I liked what they had in WWIIOL a few years back with the circle appearing around the aircraft when in close range. Sure was tough to spot them at times.
Noses in the wind since 1997
332nd Flying Mongrels
daddog
Knowing for Sure

Offline Wingnutt

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2009, 03:37:27 PM »
A soft colored halo outlining the airplane (red or green) ID's friend or foe and resolves the blending into the background issues.

No distance marker ever.  A variable rate flashing -/+ to indicate closure direction and relative velocity.

Id plane type at a range determined by aircraft size. Just take the smallest airframe in the game (109 I think is smallest) and scale ID distances out from that baseline. A 109 size airplane can be reliably identified at about 6000 feet in planform. Bigger is further.

Answers all the concerns of hardware differences and is much more realistic than the current system

I wopuld actually be willing to go along with this.

I have no problem discerning aircraft type from a distance that would be needed.. I.E. in profile I can tell a 109 from a LA from a pony at 1.0 or so..  which is still outside engagement distance..

the rub comes in your distinction between a G2/K4/F4.. and such, THAT'S when things could get difficult..  if you try to fight a F4 the way you would a K4 you will get murdered.

Offline LLogann

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4947
      • Candidz.com
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2009, 03:54:24 PM »
"Proved" might be a strong word but.......
Same thread, different starter, last month........
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,254180.0.html
I would also like to see how it was proved.

Regards,

Hammer

I play that game every night!
:lol The old game of is that a con or a spot of dust on my monitor.
See Rule #4
Now I only pay because of my friends.

Offline MaSonZ

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2009, 03:54:35 PM »
this would be more of an AvA thing. in the MA its to hard to tell friend from foe when your all flying the same model planes whenever, wherever. just my thoughts
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
HogDweeb

Offline Dawger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 925
Re: Turn the icon's off
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2009, 04:24:08 PM »
What is the source for this distance? Anecdotal evidence suggests identification at much more than 1 1/4 miles with much less than a planform angle. Of course, knowing what the bad guys are flying helps identify things early, and there is also real and anecdotal evidence of pilots mis-identifying planes within gun range. I've never seen anything definitive and it's always an interesting discussion on this topic!

Regards,

Hammer

Well, the source is me. About 10 years ago I was interested in how close Warbirds was to reality and what changes to the icon system would better reflect reality.

I freely admit there are limitations to computers when it comes to visual simulation but I also believe there is a better compromise between no icons and the rather silly icon system we have now.

As for how I arrived at my numbers....

It was a multipart experiment, one I continue to this day in small ways but here is what I did 10 years ago.

I gathered all of the actual dimensions of the aircraft in game and I compared those dimensions to aircraft commonly flying today for the real world experiment portion. I found common modern airplanes that were similar in size to each game model.

I spent time at local airports playing a game trying to identify aircraft over known distances from my vantage point and comparing my guess to reality when the plane was close enough for positive identification (I have a long background in aviation and can recognize just about anything flying)

Conclusion one.......There is a big difference between I see an airplane and I see a Beechcraft Baron.

Conclusion two.......Knowledge of aircraft is critical. Aircraft I could identify at 2 miles my wife (who has spent a considerable amount of time around airplanes) had to look at the nameplate when it was parked.

I even enlisted air traffic controllers and other pilots in the experiment. I continue this silliness to this day. I am always comparing TCAS range in the Challenger with what I see outside the window. It is amazing how hard it is to spot a airliner sized airplane when you know exactly where to look and how  close it has to be before you know exactly what it is. Just yesterday I played this game while tooling around in a 172.

The second part was to print scaled silhouettes of every plane in the game. I then gave the scaled silhouettes to my wife (and a few others ) for five minutes of study.

I measured scale distances and starting from scale 5 miles had the wife try to ID each type. I had her come in a half mile at a time and recorded the result. I did the same thing. I was able to correctly identify the aircraft much further out than she was until she became familiar. Then the distances got closer together but it was clear that outside of certain scale distances one could only determine basic characteristics and not enough to positively identify the aircraft.

109's look like P51's. Ki84's look like Zekes. 110's look like P38's from far enough away. Big planes were easy. Small planes were hard. Everything you would expect.

The 6000 feet for a 109 sized airplane comes from an average of part one and part two results.

The last thing I did was paint a white letter (it was an M so I could turn it upside down and make it a W) on a black background. The letter was the same size as the Tail ID on a B17.

The letter was reliably identifiable at 1100 feet by people with 20/20 or better (I have 20/10 20/15)

The specific number isn't incredibly important. The biggest issue is that a smaller plane should not be positively identified at the same distance as the biggest plane. A 109 is much harder to see and identify than a B24.

Anecdotal evidence is particularly unreliable because people have no distance reference unless they specifically are measuring something like this.

For example, if you are looking at an airplane flying directly overhead in the traffic pattern at the local airport it is 1000 feet away if its a piston engine plane. That is very close. Way inside guns range in the game.

And like I said earlier....there is a big difference between seeing a plane clearly and actually identifying it.