Author Topic: Wing Option for squad's  (Read 8709 times)

Offline jerkins

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2009, 10:08:36 PM »
Some people are just ignorant
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 10:13:19 PM by jerkins »
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Offline FALCONWING

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2009, 10:16:20 PM »
I am a member of the DFC ( Dog Fighters Club ), we do not PROMOTE furballing, we promote fair game play, proper BFM & ACM Mechanics, and many of us are long time AH vets that have been here from day1 of open beta and even hold the same positions on volunteer staff as we held for many years in prior / earlier only flight sims.....

Falconwing, you are 100% wrong in bashing the Aces High Training Corps..... and I guarantee you that you could fly another 10 years and not even approach the number of amount of players I have helped in flight sims.

The reason the DFC is not a squad and is a club, because it is a club for like minded individuals who want the best for Aces High, nothing more / nothing less........ the DFC is really your pillars of the community that give their time to make this game better for everyone, from Trainers, to Terrain Designers, to CM's, to individual volunteers to skinners ad infinium.......

We promote FSO / Scenarios / Squad vs Squad dueling Ladder / KOTH / we promote fair game play......... the fair game play is your issue none the less, because your what is it 6 wing squad is the exact opposite of fair game play..........I'll say it agian, we play by fair rules and strive for fair game play in all events in all melee arenas

just like private vox channel 169 in KOTH and you and the others that were tuned to it, so a rule was imposed to prevent chatting in VOX on anything except channel 101 for everyone....we play by fair rules and strive for fair game play in all events in all melee arenas.... You never flew another KOTH after that day if I recall when the KOTH CM's witnessed who all was tuned to the channel.....I will bury that ancient history  now, for it was a while ago......Huh???  I don't even know what you are talking about here????  Our squad ch is 182 and BoPs hardly ever flew KOTH.  Wow....you guys are really reaching here....what advantage could you seriously think i ever had when i never even won a round of KOTH???  Pull out some facts here because this is going a bit far....I quit flying KOTH after Lute quit running it...you guys are really pushing it with these personal insinuations and attacks....NOW IM A CHEATER because i have abeef with some of the trainers behaviors?????


as far as jumping on a Trainer because he wearing the Trainer Tag, that is not our option to turn it off and on at our demand, so take timeout and realize All Volunteer Staff are allowed to post their person thoughts/comment s/opnions and take them as such, before bashing a whole volunteered group of people.




TC this was my comment:

"It seems like the training corp should be called the whining corp lately...no wonder noone wants any part of the TA if tools like this are what are awaiting them."

Please feel free to read Widewing's initial post that made me type this in response....


This is also because Murdr seems to have made it his goal to follow me on threads and repost 3 year old comments out of context of current discussions and now Widewing has decided to get personal with me and my squad....they wear the Training tags...but instead of remaining above the fray they dive in and then try to hide behind a larger shield when they bring questions upon exactly what qualities they are espousing.

Try this a different way...if my sons teacher was promoting a politically correct agenda and my daughter's teacher began doing the same...and I made the comment..."jeez seems like teachers should be called the PC police lately"...a reasonable person would interpret that as an attack on all teachers???  Please...the few represent the whole...and the whole should be willing to police personal attacks if it is something they don't want back.   "FalconBluster" I believe was how widewing referred to me.

If you took this as a personal attack on ALL trainers then i apologize to them...but not to you....How dare you suggest I cheated in KOTH????? (read my comments above)...I hope skuzzy addresses this...this is ridiculous....

BoPs have fielded many folks who contribute....Waffle (Dan) was a BoP for about 2 years prior to going to work with HTC...MachNix skins many of the planes you fly....USRanger does soundpacks....Thndregg/Flaydone have developed buff gun sites...etc etc.  I have contributed because I gave these guys a situation (squad) that enhances their enjoyment of the game.  Maybe you feel comfortable saying their contributions are not the equivalent of yours but I would disagree...I think it is all part and parcel of the same....can many other squads name as many contributors???  You ARE like the other trainers in that you seem comfortable putting down others contributions as not being as large as yours...I personally dont have that confidence to know how to judge who has "done more."

I will tell you one thing...no BOP has ever posted trying to prevent "furballers" from getting something they want...DA...Fitertown....AvA. ..new planes...etc.  

But "furballers" seem comfortable "rejecting" wishlist wishes that would make guys who look to fly with more then a handful of peoples fun enhanced...and not by just saying "no thanks" but by insulting their squads along the way :huh
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:05:18 PM by FALCONWING »
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2009, 10:18:39 PM »
That covers everything rather well, thanks.

I do think it is a bit disappointing I had to ask.  Seems more and more lately things are getting back to the old "furballer vs. toolshedder" arguments, and the trainers by and large seem to advocate a strong "furballer" stance when there are other aspects of the game that are just as entertaining for some.

Key word there:  Entertaining.  You say it is first and foremost a flying game, but I would say on a more fundamental level it is entertainment.  How someone acheives that entertainment is up to them, and IMO, no one should be belittled for what moves them to subscribe to the game.

My unsolicited $0.02 directed toward no one in particular.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled flame-fest.

Its not about furballers vs landgrabbers, its about honorable play, fair play.

Plan A...

Launch 3 formations of buffs, 5 AC as fighter cover for them, 6 hvy fighters as clean up/gv killers, one goon. Arrive at target at 10-15k, hopefully your cover fights have SKILLFULLY defended your buffs to get them there. Bomb runs are made SKILLFULLY hitting 90 % of the town from 15k. HVY fighters drop in, two are assign to finish off the town, the other 4 hunt gvs trying to get to town for defense. Goon dive in, and loops at 50 feet off the ground dropping troops in an arc over the town. All fighter now are low trying to keep a cap long enough for the troops to make it in.

Plan B ( the one we have these days)...

Launch 7 110's, 7 Nik's and one goon. Everyone takes a direct line to the target staying under 500 feet. Everyone makes one pass on the town with cannons taking out 50% of the town. 110's stay at town shooting buildings while the NIKs vulch base. Goon mozzies in, lands outside of town and troops run in.

Which plan is more fun? Which plan could possibly be defended against thus creating more fun? Which one takes more skill in pulling off? Which would you be more proud winning with?

Niether plan by the way has anything remotely looking like a furball, but I bet most of the guys YOU label furballers would love to be part of either side of "Plan A" just for the fun it would be, just for the fun fights it would create. The old days were about skills, today its more about numbers. The old days people wanted to learn to get better, now a days people throw body after body at a target until it crumbles.

You want to take base, you want to win the war, by all means go for it, but make a game of it, fight for it. Say you have 10 guys in your squad, 5 are average players, 5 are newbies and have trouble hitting the ground with a bomb. What do you do? Do you take the time to train, or encourage those 5 newbies to learn more and get better, or do you get your self another 5-10 newbies to throw at the target? To day it seems the answer is to just get a bunch more newbies, start another wing.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 10:20:34 PM by The Fugitive »

Offline Widewing

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2009, 11:37:50 PM »

And yes widewing seems foolish imho....he started with a post that insulted BoPs and he is welcome to apologize and start again...I have played many years longer then him...i just choose to enjoy the whole game as a game and not as a life decision.  I'm sure if I was motivated i could memorize optimal turn speeds and radiuses for all the planes and be uber too.  The truth is it doesn't seem historic but gamey.  If people who read ww2 aviation history really thinks we come even close to what actually occurred by DA standards then I can't help you.  The MA for me is the closest to the unpredictable environment of air combat and that is why i love it.  Maybe you guys should spend more time in there.  The number of geniuses who have decided to prioritize ACM over everything else is ridiculous but hey you are not alone.....

<snip rambling>

If widewing is an amazing guy then my first encounter with him is very negative and he can reflect on that as well...perhaps he should reread his first post and decide if that is the post that would make me think well of trainers or be convinced that the true dweebs have infiltrated the training ranks.  I would hope someone who has dedicated himself to only training would be amazing....but who really cares...resume material for you??     Murder is of the same ilk...though it is only lately that I find him annoying.   :salute

I stated: "There isn't a single BOP that could wake me up from a nap... Keep preaching that skill means nothing...  Keep insisting that a player who wants to improve his ACM skill is "nuts"..."

I made a statement of fact. It's a fact because you, their leader, discourage them from learning basic ACM. If you find that facts insult, change the facts. You can change the facts by getting your squadies some training. Not the type I suspect you emphasize, but training that teaches them some basics in air combat maneuvering, which you brand as "gamey". Rather than make such statements, encourage your guys to learn how to fight effectively, even if alone. Indeed, the only guy in your squad that I have seen flying alone is REVRAND in his Niki. I have found him at a few in-between field furballs... Having let that cat out of the bag, don't kick him out of the BOPs.  ;)

Rather that spreading more manure than a Tennessee tobacco farmer, admit that your guys could benefit from ACM training. This would strengthen the BOPs, and it would allow for some diversity in game play. You won't have to avoid an even-up fight to have success. The problem isn't the rank and file of the BOPs, the problem is their leadership. That means you. I'd bet that there are several members of the various BOP squads that have the talent to be a top tier stick, if only they were directed that way and challenged. All of them can certainly improve substantially. So, why would you not encourage that?

I suggested you bring your guys to the TA for a 3v1 clinic, or a wingman clinic. If you think that they won't learn something of value, you would be completely incorrect. You would even get to fight a trainer, 3 on 1. In fact, everyone will get to defend 3v1. They'll learn how to judge the greatest threat, and the most simple yet most difficult factor to master: Winning a 3v1 requires you to kill one guy as fast as possible. Which one? How to decide? How to fight 3 as 1. Decision making. Judging E states. Recognizing the weakest of the 3, etc and so on.

Being uber is far more than just knowing and recognizing the absolute capabilities of each fighter. However, without that knowledge, you will never be able to jump into any fighter and immediately be good in it. I have found that guys who specialize in one type usually cannot compete nearly as well in another type. Therefore, I preach that learning every aircraft is a critical part of being well rounded. Those of you who compete in KOTH events understand exactly what I'm driving at. Sometimes, the specialist isn't really as good as was supposed. Single dimension pilots will eventually have to face their limitations and suck up the result. Here's an example. I flew a series of duels with a guy thought by many in the community to be the best in his particular fighter. His problem was that his style never prepared him for a close-in, low speed fight where knowledge of plane handling at the absolute limit was required. We flew his ride and it was a debacle for him. However, he now understands what I am trying to enlighten you with.

You would be surprised how more fun your guys could have if they were confident that they could fight with a reasonable expectation of winning as individuals and not just as a gang.

You made this statement that belies your ignorance of history: "The truth is it doesn't seem historic but gamey." Your reference was to ACM and detailed performance knowledge of the aircraft. That is completely wrong. Ever hear of "Clobber College"? This was a required course for all incoming P-51 pilots to the 8th Air Force. They were taught advanced air combat maneuvering. They were taught how to extract maximum performance from their Mustangs. They were indoctrinated in the relative performance, strengths and weaknesses of enemy aircraft. Why do you think they did this? Because, sooner or later, their survival would depend on their ACM training and their knowledge of aircraft performance, capability and their individual skill at utilizing all of it.

Listen, you've reached China, stop digging.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline FALCONWING

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2009, 11:46:56 PM »
I stated: "There isn't a single BOP that could wake me up from a nap... Keep preaching that skill means nothing...  Keep insisting that a player who wants to improve his ACM skill is "nuts"..."

I made a statement of fact. It's a fact because you, their leader, discourage them from learning basic ACM. If you find that facts insult, change the facts. You can change the facts by getting your squadies some training. Not the type I suspect you emphasize, but training that teaches them some basics in air combat maneuvering, which you brand as "gamey". Rather than make such statements, encourage your guys to learn how to fight effectively, even if alone. Indeed, the only guy in your squad that I have seen flying alone is REVRAND in his Niki. I have found him at a few in-between field furballs... Having let that cat out of the bag, don't kick him out of the BOPs.  ;)

Rather that spreading more manure than a Tennessee tobacco farmer, admit that your guys could benefit from ACM training. This would strengthen the BOPs, and it would allow for some diversity in game play. You won't have to avoid an even-up fight to have success. The problem isn't the rank and file of the BOPs, the problem is their leadership. That means you. I'd bet that there are several members of the various BOP squads that have the talent to be a top tier stick, if only they were directed that way and challenged. All of them can certainly improve substantially. So, why would you not encourage that?

I suggested you bring your guys to the TA for a 3v1 clinic, or a wingman clinic. If you think that they won't learn something of value, you would be completely incorrect. You would even get to fight a trainer, 3 on 1. In fact, everyone will get to defend 3v1. They'll learn how to judge the greatest threat, and the most simple yet most difficult factor to master: Winning a 3v1 requires you to kill one guy as fast as possible. Which one? How to decide? How to fight 3 as 1. Decision making. Judging E states. Recognizing the weakest of the 3, etc and so on.

Being uber is far more than just knowing and recognizing the absolute capabilities of each fighter. However, without that knowledge, you will never be able to jump into any fighter and immediately be good in it. I have found that guys who specialize in one type usually cannot compete nearly as well in another type. Therefore, I preach that learning every aircraft is a critical part of being well rounded. Those of you who compete in KOTH events understand exactly what I'm driving at. Sometimes, the specialist isn't really as good as was supposed. Single dimension pilots will eventually have to face their limitations and suck up the result. Here's an example. I flew a series of duels with a guy thought by many in the community to be the best in his particular fighter. His problem was that his style never prepared him for a close-in, low speed fight where knowledge of plane handling at the absolute limit was required. We flew his ride and it was a debacle for him. However, he now understands what I am trying to enlighten you with.

You would be surprised how more fun your guys could have if they were confident that they could fight with a reasonable expectation of winning as individuals and not just as a gang.

You made this statement that belies your ignorance of history: "The truth is it doesn't seem historic but gamey." Your reference was to ACM and detailed performance knowledge of the aircraft. That is completely wrong. Ever hear of "Clobber College"? This was a required course for all incoming P-51 pilots to the 8th Air Force. They were taught advanced air combat maneuvering. They were taught how to extract maximum performance from their Mustangs. They were indoctrinated in the relative performance, strengths and weaknesses of enemy aircraft. Why do you think they did this? Because, sooner or later, their survival would depend on their ACM training and their knowledge of aircraft performance, capability and their individual skill at utilizing all of it.

Listen, you've reached China, stop digging.


My regards,

Widewing

Once again you are stating facts that aren't true...I have had 1v1 2v2 and 5 v5 training sessions for bops...a few squad nights ago the eny was ridiculous and we all went to the DA and furballed all night long.  We conduct fiter sweeps and are assigned wingmen for fights...you are flat out lying...

We have had many fiter clinics and discuss exactly such things as e-fighting, flap and throttle usage....I dont even know how to buff...

I realize this is now a he said/she said but I'm sorry you insist on pushing a lie...just like TC suggesting I used alternate vox to "cheat" at KOTH.  I won't even let BoPs switch sides to "spy".  When folks have tried to pm me cv locations etc i refuse to accept the information.  How dare you suggest you know how i run my squad or what we do or don't do...

Being Uber in a vitual game is useless....having fun is useful....I choose to have fun and you have a problem with it.  I'm  satisfied with being uber in life and not overcommitting the time i already spend on a video game...
 :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 11:53:57 PM by FALCONWING »
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2009, 11:53:31 PM »

Offline Murdr

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2009, 11:54:25 PM »
Murdr, another member has been following me in several threads

Try again dillweed.  Murdr: Replies #4 and #11.  Falconwing: Reply #23  Who's following who?  I hadn't said a word to you recently until you started sniping at "the trainers" in general.

Quote
and also has dimmed my view of the training corp....

No doubt you're making an impression in this thread yourself.

I hope skuzzy addresses this...this is ridiculous....

From the looks of page 1 where you are told to see rule #4, it seems to be a possibility.


Offline Murdr

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #97 on: February 03, 2009, 12:01:18 AM »
you are flat out lying...

Yep.  You and ROX are cut from the same delusional cloth.  First you've never even heard of the guy, and now you expect him to have first hand knowledge of your squads activities...There's no other way to read the above...not "you are mistaken" or "you assume incorrectly".  It's "you are flat out lying".  Can we expect a ROX type follow up where you habitually post you've proven so-n-so's a liar now?

Offline FALCONWING

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2009, 12:23:11 AM »
Yep.  You and ROX are cut from the same delusional cloth.  First you've never even heard of the guy, and now you expect him to have first hand knowledge of your squads activities...There's no other way to read the above...not "you are mistaken" or "you assume incorrectly".  It's "you are flat out lying".  Can we expect a ROX type follow up where you habitually post you've proven so-n-so's a liar now?

do you even read the quotes?  Read what he typed THEN read what i posted.  Use a dictionary and look up the word "lying".  He says he knows what i do or dont do with my squad.  Again...READ HIS POST...

Why would i have to know the guy to say he is lying???  If this continues to perplex you I'll ask my 8th grader to explain the use of the English language...

<shakes leg again>

Actually ROX is not a bad guy...his approach to the trying to organize the knights is not far off what we once did for the Bish....but I'M not the virtual character judger you are...don't fall off your pedestal.... :rofl :lol :rofl
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Offline FALCONWING

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2009, 12:27:47 AM »
Try again dillweed.  Murdr: Replies #4 and #11.  Falconwing: Reply #23  Who's following who?  I hadn't said a word to you recently until you started sniping at "the trainers" in general.  Um reply #23 had nothing to do with you or trainers...nice try.  You started in on me in the other thread under wishlist about squad vox...so please OFF MY ANKLE!!

No doubt you're making an impression in this thread yourself.

From the looks of page 1 where you are told to see rule #4, it seems to be a possibility.
I believe calling me a dillweed in this thread would violate rule #4 as well

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Offline Murdr

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #100 on: February 03, 2009, 12:33:20 AM »
I have no problems reading.  You said:
Quote
If you take this game as a game of skill the you are horribly confused as to what skill is...this is a decent cartoon plane game...if you think you can take your skillz and go fly a real plane or go help the president in "Independence Day" you are nuts.
and in general ridiculing ACM.

Based on the above attitude stated in you own words, Widewing said:
Quote
It's a fact because you, their leader, discourage them from learning basic ACM. If you find that facts insult, change the facts. You can change the facts by getting your squadies some training. Not the type I suspect you emphasize, but training that teaches them some basics in air combat maneuvering, which you brand as "gamey".

And you call him a liar.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 12:35:42 AM by Murdr »

Offline Widewing

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #101 on: February 03, 2009, 12:37:30 AM »
Once again you are stating facts that aren't true...I have had 1v1 2v2 and 5 v5 training sessions for bops...a few squad nights ago the eny was ridiculous and we all went to the DA and furballed all night long.  We conduct fiter sweeps and are assigned wingmen for fights...you are flat out lying...

We have had many fiter clinics and discuss exactly such things as e-fighting, flap and throttle usage....I dont even know how to buff...

I realize this is now a he said/she said but I'm sorry you insist on pushing a lie...just like TC suggesting I used alternate vox to "cheat" at KOTH.  I won't even let BoPs switch sides to "spy".  When folks have tried to pm me cv locations etc i refuse to accept the information.  How dare you suggest you know how i run my squad or what we do or don't do...

Being Uber in a vitual game is useless....having fun is useful....I choose to have fun and you have a problem with it.  I'm  satisfied with being uber in life and not overcommitting the time i already spend on a video game...
 :rolleyes:

You realize that you contradict yourself repeatedly throughout this thread, right?

ACM is gamey, but you train your guys 1v1, 2v2 and 5v5... What are you training them to do? You see, this goes back to my point that you can't admit that ACM training is essential.

AH2 is an air combat game. Base captures are not the ultimate goal. The ability to capture exists as a means to facilitate air combat. You prefer to sneak in, avoiding air combat (or at least that where you cannot gang the few defenders). Let me know if I stray off the truth, okay? You discourage your squad members from getting training from anyone but you, correct? I mean, being good at something is useless, right? You don't want to spend additional time to train and build skills as you are too busy leading the "uber life", whatever the hell that means, correct?

Have you asked your guys if they might want some formal training (not your kind, our kind)? I've offered to gather trainers and DFC members to work with your people to build useful and essential skills. You refuse.... Why? We don't send a bill.

A leader looks out for the welfare of those under him. He strives to provide the best means for them to grow and excel. He places emphasis on continuous improvement. He leads by example. He doesn't draw attention to himself. <---- When you are doing this stuff, you're a leader.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Murdr

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #102 on: February 03, 2009, 12:40:14 AM »
Murdr, another member has been following me in several threads

Now if we want to make a case for a liar.  Several is what 2? 3? Threads.  Already established that I was participating in this thread first.  Go look up the thread from a few weeks ago.  I was already participating in that discussion for quite awhile before you chimed in.  So the truth is that you started baggin on the trainers, and I posted in the sister topic that Bronk started, in reply to this threads wish, which by the way I was already participating in.


mommy, the mean man called me a dillweed  :cry

Offline FALCONWING

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #103 on: February 03, 2009, 12:42:22 AM »
I have no problems reading.  You said: and in general ridiculing ACM.And from this he knows that i guide my wingmen/squaddies away from being good pilots or learning ACM??? You guys are psychic wonders!!! BTW you put the word "acm" in there...good grief  

Based on the above attitude stated in you own words, Widewing said:
And you call him a liar.so now you know how widewing arrived at his conclusions??? He makes direct statements about my direct instructions to my squad. This would be contraindicated by anyone who visitedour website or even flew with us.  seriously dude lighten up...you are trying so hard to push my buttons and with everything you do its obvious and spotted a mile away
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Offline Murdr

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Re: Wing Option for squad's
« Reply #104 on: February 03, 2009, 12:46:44 AM »
And from this he knows that i guide my wingmen/squaddies away from being good pilots or learning ACM??? You guys are psychic wonders!!! BTW you put the word "acm" in there...good grief
Your own words:
Quote
Some of us "grew up" a decade ago and realized that ACM is a gamey concept at best and that what was best about this game was the comradery and fun to be had...

You're the "button pusher" here.  This is how you entered this discussion:
Quote
What a bunch of crybabies....yeesh....

First of all compose a full list ...there are at least ten other active squads with 2+ "squads" AK's, WoT, Unforgiven, 173rd etc etc

Second of all dont be such idiots...

My advise is to stop digging.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 12:50:33 AM by Murdr »