Not seeing the forest for the trees

[Simaril]

You would have more fun if you had more ACM tools in your pocket. 

NO doubt about it.

But my point wasn't that ACM isn't good. Was trying to say that even though the ACM work would make me a better sim pilot, I find I just don't have the stomach for doing that work...and that doesn't make me an AH failure. It's OK for a game to be just a diversion, because it IS a game.

Don't misunderstand. I'm a fighter guy, through and through. Only occasionally go for bases, hardly ever up a bomber, and way to impatient for GV work. I do OK in a 1 on 1, but unless they're hopelessly bad I'm not going to come home after a 1v3 or 1v2....I just can't kill them fast enough, mostly because I can't master deflection shooting. (My ACM is far, far ahead of my gunnery...and I can't get my gunnery to improve despite lots of offline practice.)

I know some guys have a grand time working on moves, or going head to head with better pilots and learning through pain. I have a very hard time with those things, finding I just get frustrated and/or bored. I was just saying that that doesnt make me a failure at AH

[kvuo75]

  moot


i'll add though, as a knight, being continually outnumbered is not fun.. I don't see the point in 30 players hording a base (noe or not), when those players totals outnumber the defending country by 2:1

I dont care if anyone thinks it's a fight, but 20 vs 5 is not a fight IMO... Oh, and those other 3 bases are flashing with no defenders also! we only have 10 ppl free... where to?

[FALCONWING]

You would have more fun if you had more ACM tools in your pocket.  Less means to combat means less combat, less chances of being able to jump into any given furball (for its own sake or to win a base), less time surviving and having fun while surviving, less of everything that's fun.  ACM isn't some starchy formal un-fun dogma, and it's not black magic either.  It's more marbles in your bag, it's extra dimensions of freedom that improves the amount of fun you can have, the same way extra pieces and rules bring Chess above the level of Checkers and TicTacToe.  The DA isn't the be-all and end-all of air combat. Yes it is TicTacToe compared to the MA environment.  It's not what "us furball guys" are arguing for, but those micro-level ACM elements are what you use to pave the way to macro-level success.  Denying this is a mistake.

-1

you too are missing the point...none of us are saying ACM is useless or wrong....get a grasp of that first

what we ARE saying is that there comes a point (that we can all choose for ourselves) where we have enough to have fun....where going thru formal training sessions and using our free time JUST to train becomes WORK and the amount of extra FUN gained from it is not enough to justify it...

Just like the DA....i think your tic-tac-toe analogy is actually quite good...there comes a point where it gets gamey...where guys who do it more then others have advantages that are beyond ACM and skill and guys who do it alot end up in very very long fights flapping/unflapping to creep around THAT much faster than the next guy...to some of us this isn't fun or skill...it doesn't confer THAT much advantage to carry over to the MA...where we like to play...

[moot]

That's not my point to you at all.  Read the post before that. Clobbering inanimate objects so as to deny gameplay with the opposition in a multiplayer game is fun?  You would call winning a game on even terms "gamey", but not biasing the odds to your favor before the game even started?  It's gamey to take a null or negative handicap, but not to take a positive one so that you barely have to interact with the opposing players?

And I'm not one for formal training. It bores me out of my mind, and I cringe everytime I try to tutor someone and can hear their teeth grinding anytime I tell them the truth that practice makes perfect, aka DRILL.  There are ways to drill in fun though, and dismissing this possibility off-hand is bogus.

I only go for very long fights because it's fun, not because I end up winning them.  I have fun and I reckon the other guy has more fun that way too.  Zapping cons left and right when I have to is fun too, but I reckon it's not so much fun to get popped by some weird 190 3 seconds in.  But that's the price for hording, it's their choice.  I'm arguing that the community ought to self-regulate to maximize fun.  Denying that adding marbles to everyone's bag is gamey, denying that there needs to be a good balance of strat and tactics, or beating around the bush with strawmen and ad hominems is a mistake.

Strategy and tactics go hand in hand.  Period. 

[Rich46yo]

Thats the coolest part of this game. That actual ACM tactics, the kind actually used in the war, can also give you so much success in the game. Strategic/Tactical tactics and planning too. And even better you can match up airplanes that never actually fought in the war and see how they do against each other. There are so many fascinating angles to this game. Find your niche and then just have fun doing it.

[FALCONWING]

That's not my point to you at all.  Read the post before that. Clobbering inanimate objects so as to deny gameplay with the opposition in a multiplayer game is fun?  You would call winning a game on even terms gamey, but not biasing the odds to your favor before the game even started?

Yes!!!  I WOULD completely agree with you...they are BOTH gamey!!!  They are BOTH developed because of helping one be SUCCESSFUL in accomplishing their desired goal!!!

YOU choose not to pursue base taking and developing techniques to ensure this type of success....

OTHERS choose NOT to pursue advanced ACM to ensure their 1v1 success....

I choose to be relatively decent at BOTH

I don't see any one choice as worse than the other.....as long as they are all having fun...

The base takers have organizers who lead by example.....they appeal to a certain percent of the population


Some of the "ACM" guys do NOT seem capable of providing the same leadership except by critiquing the other style of play...that is not leadership....I would love to see the trainers and others post "fiter" missions...arrange furballs...in the MA....

Why does it seem to be the responisibility and fault of the base taking organizers/squads to promote a style of gameplay they don't find as satisfying????

I think the ACM proponents need to look within their own ranks for MA leadership to promote the style they wish to see developed....I, for one, am all for it and think it is needed...

Perhaps some of these guys also need to fly more in the evening and see what goes on ch 200...that hurts the ACM cause as much as anything...I think self-policing of the MA ACM community so they seem more approachable would help their cause as well...perhaps if someone they respect such as Widewing or Ghost pming them might be of benefit...

[kvuo75]

Yes!!!  I WOULD completely agree with you...they are BOTH gamey!!!  They are BOTH developed because of helping one be SUCCESSFUL in accomplishing their desired goal!!!

YOU choose not to pursue base taking and developing techniques to ensure this type of success....

OTHERS choose NOT to pursue advanced ACM to ensure their 1v1 success....

I choose to be relatively decent at BOTH

I don't see any one choice as worse than the other.....as long as they are all having fun...

The base takers have organizers who lead by example.....they appeal to a certain percent of the population



The "ACM" guys do NOT seem capable of providing the same leadership except by critiquing the other style of play...I would love to see the trainers and others post "fiter" missions...arrange furballs...in the MA....

Why does it seem to be the responisibility and fault of the base taking organizers/squads to promote a style of gameplay they don't find as satisfying????

I think the ACM proponents need to look within their own ranks for leadership to promote the style they wish to see developed....I, for one, am all for it and think it is needed...

i dont presume to speak for moot, but rolling bases with a horde usually entails shooting buildings, with very few actual kills... the "acm" / "furball" guys like shooting other people.. shooting at buildings can be done offline, shooting at other people is what we're all paying 15$/mo for.. I think...


(just to be sure, I like shooting at a building now and then myself)

[moot]

When I read and say "gamey", I mean dodging the fun and challenge in the game by exploiting loopholes.  That's the opposite of learning to get better at air combat, which is the whole point of AH.

be SUCCESSFUL in accomplishing their desired goal

is relativizing if it means anyone who lights up the fun centers in their brain is "right".  It's correct if the goals aren't detrimental to air combat in AH.  

I don't choose not to pursue base taking.  You're flat out wrong there, I've done it a lot.  I'd do it even more if there was any kind of opposition.. As it is, it's just too easy. So easy it's boring.

The ACM guys are plenty capable of providing leadership.  Stang's done it, I've done it, the muppets have done it any number of times.. Fester would do it years ago by having a mission of nothing but Stukas fly above an enemy field feeding a lopsided fight and giving as sole orders "get directly above the field and then do what you want". We've gone to a base and killed the town in no time, then had a goon drop troops over the field.. The result?  It sparked a great fight.  Most recently, just three of us (Scotch, Grizz and I) took (IIRC) 239 so as to have a triangle of bish/rook/knight fields to get a three way fight going.

I don't understand how guys like you can honestly provoke trainers like this.. Do you REALLY think they don't have as good a handle on the game as you do?  That they're incapable or unwilling to set up some proper air combat missions, furballs in the MA?

The responsibility the large squad leaders have is to not guide the largest followings in the game down the paths of least resistance, of more mediocre gameplay.  This is more of the same relativizing for the sake of "whatever they find satisfying", at whatever cost to the game's resulting gameplay quality.

I think the ACM proponents need to look within their own ranks for leadership to promote the style they wish to see developed..

Guess what the DFC is.

And you've totaly ignored the fundamental argument that a game is based on interaction, a multi-team multiplayer game on competing, and that filling the gap in players' BFM and ACM skills is a positive.

[Getback]

Where have I contradicted myself? Most of the time you folks add an additional word to make it go the way you want. Honestly I've been chastised the whole way by you trolls and I'm a little tired of it. I've made my point very clear and you guys don't like it. That's not my problem. You deal with it any way you like. You play any way you like. I've been way too considerate up until now. It's awful that a whole country thinks the word mission is a bad word and that you have to pm someone when you want to use it. I'm with Joker here I played for about 5 years and never posted and was a lot happier.

Oh and avoiding fights, Joker proved it. You guys scream no fights and he puts up a mission on country and you guys don't show. Dadsguns greets guys coming in at 25k and they run. Like Hitech says he uses base attacks to get the fight going. He has win the war built into the game. You know just like he mission editor. Do you need a step by step tutorial so you know where it's at?! Which btw seems to allow for many many people to join. My only goal was to get the Rooks to look at things a bit from a different perspective. But you know what you can't deal with even that. Instead you have the "kill the messenger attitude". Oh genius. Only been done since the Roman Empire days.

When I posted about the stats statement I was thinking of the gaminess of some of the scoring tactics and I was thinking of a second item at the same time. It got tangled together in one sentence . If you want to know about what it is pm me and I will give you the gory details. It certainly doesn't add to the fight in any way and I'm sure it wasn't intended. Yet folks have discovered the flaw and used it to their advantage. It avoids fights. Look at the top bombing stats. Tells a way different story than what you folks are saying here. I don't see you posting on that. It would be risky wouldn't it. I mean trolls watch this all the time. Just lurking.

And since the gloves are off here. Murdr, I sure all that you do is greatly appreciated. I like the hints and tips when you log in and I do love stats. I'm an accountant. Still I've often heard that people often point to their on-line friends as the reason they stay. Seen that I will bet a hundred times and when some one leaves that they admire, like Bipolar, they are saddened but understanding. I don't think I heard anyone say you know tip #3 kept me playing.

Finally I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius while you muddle in syntax.

[FALCONWING]

I don't understand how guys like you can honestly provoke trainers like this.. Do you REALLY think they don't have as good a handle on the game as you do?  That they're incapable or unwilling to set up some proper air combat missions, furballs in the MA?

Again I am being accused of PROVOKING trainers???  The thread where i got into it with Widewing was because he entered a thread with a post that insulted my squad.  I chose to defend...then i was accused of "insulting" him.  Its nice to have two sets of rules.

I presented what is referred to in the real world as an O.F.I. (Opportunity For Improvement)...it occurred to me that your cause might be better advanced by duplicating the tactics of "mission" squads.  i.e. running acm/fiter missions...maybe a trainer on each country etc...wasn't an insult...

In his post in this thread he again seems to suggest that Big Squad CO's dont train.  FYI BoPs train every Thrusday for those interested and we have completed inter-squad dueling ladders which far outlived the AH dueling ladder.  We have our own website which is pretty darn active.  I realize he would rather we use the official trainers and of course there is no prohibiton in the squad for this.  I will hazard a guess that seeing trainers insult their C.O. and squadmates might be more of a barrier.

The responsibility the large squad leaders have is to not guide the largest followings in the game down the paths of least resistance, of more mediocre gameplay.  This is more of the same relativizing for the sake of "whatever they find satisfying", at whatever cost to the game's resulting gameplay quality.
 Guess what the DFC is.  I have found out some of my friends are DFC.  They sent me emails.  It seems to be like IMP was at UVA...a skull & bones type society that you get nominated too if you impress the existing members to advance specific causes.  The funny thing is the guys I know who are in it are NOT particularly great virtual pilots...the sad thing is there isn't and doesn't need to be a LGC (land grabbing club) or GVC (GV club) because they are naturally fun.  All the same I don't think it is a bad idea...I still think active leadership in the MA would be better.  Stang and Jaxxo, when they played more, used to PM me all the time to come take bases so they could have better fights.  When BoPs were available we would. Now Stang and JAxxo are outstanding members of the community imho...they represent ACM in a way that would inspire folks to get better

And you've totaly ignored the fundamental argument that a game is based on interaction, a multi-team multiplayer game on competing, and that filling the gap in players' BFM and ACM skills is a positive. SIgh...for the umpteenth time yes we agree..it is a positive...but YOU seem to miss the point that many of us see the game as much more...comradery, fun, organization, reaching objectives...you know the BoP Falcons have an aggregate campaign fighter k/d of 2+ almost every camp...better then many "acm" squads.  Yet we don't vulch, pick etc...it is just how we end up at the end of the day...i guess we feel we are good enough...

[moot]

Provoking trainers - Two wrongs don't make a right. I'll concede my english is rusty and "provoke" was the right meaning with probably the wrong inflection. 

Training/teaching - Yes, that's what he implies.  Don't jerk your knee if you think he's just hammering it for incriminating reflex. Ya know? Holding a grudge over a perceived insult is not going to help either.

Advancing the BFM/ACM cause - There's tons of ways, missions aren't the only one and unfortunately not the best one.  One on one teaching is the best way. No matter how good a teacher you are, leading 10+ guys at a time will never compare with 1:1 tutoring.

DFC nomination criteria isn't elitist. It's actualy very diverse; I'd be willing to bet it's more diverse than any group in the game. The man who founded it probably has one of the very few best judgement of character and sense of responsibility I've seen explicitely.
Its specific causes are gameplay quality. It doesn't look down on strat or gv playing, it only recognizes that you can't build a road without small bits of stone. Micro/macro, BFM/ACM/.../Strategy, forest & trees again. 

Active leadership in the MA won't work.  No one cares about some armchair general in a pixel game that's removed from the player's interests.  This is the same dynamic that dictates capping squads at some optimal size like 32.

You must recognize that you're not objective here. Stang and Jaxxo sound like your friends, as opposed to.. who?  Widewing?  Widewing and other non-friends are just as much furballers and proponents of quality gameplay as Jaxxo is.  I can say with certainty that Jaxxo is actualy a very poor substitute for Widewing in this specific case. He's abrasive and individualistic, whereas Widewing is merely bold but altruistic, and a way better teacher on top of that.  Whether anyone is a friend of yours or mine, or not, is independent of what matters as far as pushing the quality gameplay boulder up the hill goes. 

"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing". Big words but the same dynamic is at work here.

[NoBaddy]

Oh and avoiding fights, Joker proved it. You guys scream no fights and he puts up a mission on country and you guys don't show.

Finally I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius while you muddle in syntax.

Yes, Joker's "proof" is just as valid as saying that your country sucks because they don't come defend a field when you tell them it's under attack.

..and trust me, no one here has come anywhere near make you look like a genius....you simply make it too hard!!

[Getback]

Yes, Joker's "proof" is just as valid as saying that your country sucks because they don't come defend a field when you tell them it's under attack.

..and trust me, no one here has come anywhere near make you look like a genius....you simply make it too hard!!

You make it easy!

[NoBaddy]

You make it easy!

Right. You are a real rocket scientist/brain surgeon. You create a thread based on a subject that you know will be volatile and then when that everyone else is stupid and mistreats you??

Oh yeah, that's really a bright move. 

[The Fugitive]

Sample of game play....

Bops load up a plan, execute it flawlessly, but DO NOT take down fighter hangers, nor do they set up the vulch. In stead, they allow a fight to develop, if one is to. Sure it makes the capture a bit less certain, but it does generate more fun for more people. Being the awesome squad that the Bops are, they should still be able to take the base, but more fights ensue, both side have fun.

Couldn't this be a good game plan? couldn't the ACM types as well as landgrabbers, and team oriented players, and even unskilled new players find more fun this way? Just a small change in how a "mega-squad" operates can increase the fun of many. Wouldn't this be better for the community as a whole?