Not seeing the forest for the trees

[Murdr]

Don't furballers etc feed off the folks that attempt captures?!

They can, but it's not nessacery.  Otherwise you would not constantly see armchair generals constantly whining about furballers sapping rescources of "their" war effort, and intentionally killing furballs to force others to play the way they want to.

Here are portions of a conversation on that topic...

Many many times, I've seen the attitude by the "war winning" minded player, that the "furballers" are a resource that they are entitled to tap.  They follow up on that concept by toolsheding specifically to kill the furball, and to free up their team mates to play the way they want.  There is not a parallel situation in the reverse.  So I can understand the little jabs being thrown in the conversation.

As a case in point to illustrate the truth of what Murdr says here and what AKAK alluded to earlier. The extremely popular Donut map was removed from the rotation due to the angst created when the "toolshedders" or "win the war types" felt it necessary to destroy the Fighter Town on the map in an effort to coerce those playing there, against their wills, to assist elsewhere with their map reset goal, furballers really didn't want the map reset at all as they loved the map.

What would happen on Donut, and why "toolshedders" often rely on "furballers" on other maps, is one team would commit less of its furballers to FT (usually Bish). This left a far greater proportion of "furballers" elsewhere on the map which could not be effectively countered by the other two teams because all of their furballers were at FT. So, the toolshedders from the other two teams, frustrated by their lack of headway toward winning the war, set about destroying the FT for the "good of their teams" in an effort to leave their furballers no choice but to fight where they wanted them to and hopefully "win the war" and reset the map.

So, I suppose if all teams were comprised of ONLY toolshedders, furballers would not be necessary as no one would actually be fighting each other per se, they would just be pounding pixels with NOE smash & grabs or 30k Buffs. But, as there are those who enjoy fighting each other on other teams, each team requires those "furballer" types in most situations to counter one another and maintain local air superiority long enough to effect base captures and eventually reset the map.

It is because of this I always laugh to myself when I hear some lil' Napoleon spewing venom because all of the "furballers" left the base he wanted prior to capture consummation. But, almost invariably the reason they left is due to the fact he dropped the Fighter Hangers and there was no one for the "furballers" to furball, so they left for greener pastures elsewhere. Now, because he has no fighters there and the FHs are coming back up, the remaining toolshedders get whalloped by the defenders and fail to effect the base capture. In all honesty it is the "furballers" that really don't need the "toolshedders" not the other way around.

I can't understand why any furballer flys in any arena except the DA?  If it's all about the fight and aircombat, why bother with any other arena except the one designed for furballers?  The LWA was designed for people to capture fields, I suggest that the furballers go to the arena designed for them.  If they insist in flying in any other arena, they have to accept the fact that land grabers are going to be doing their thing as well.   

As far as I can see, Knights seem to have the most dedicated group of furballers. I base this conclusion on the number of fields that Knights lose on any given day and what appears to be a Knight's inability to capture a field.  Why they lose so many fields with so many furballers is byond me.  They say it's because you can't defend against a hoard.  What do they think 20 guys furballing is? 

The bolded statement above is the biggest load of crap that MOST toolsheders believe in this game. The arenas.....and yes thats ALL OF THEM were made to generate fights! PERIOD ! It doesn't matter if the fight is 1 vs 1 in the air, on the ground, or 20 vs 20 trying to grab a base, its all there to generate fights !

 The only problem furballers have with toolsheders is the toolsheder feels they MUST destroy the furball, whether they see it as a chance to grab a base, or to force the furballers to help them grab more bases.

The only problem toolsheders have with furballers is that they see all those resources wasted, how can that be fun when nothing gets accomplished !

This game was not designed for furballers alone, nor was it made "to win the war", its all here to serve as a means to an end.... to get everyone to fight !

I can't understand why any furballer flys in any arena except the DA?  If it's all about the fight and aircombat, why bother with any other arena except the one designed for furballers? 

The DA was not designed for furballing. It was designed as a place to have duels. The little furball lake in the DA sprung up to give those who couldn't respect the rules of the arena someplace to have their fun without interfering with those using the DA for its intended purpose. Prior to furball lake's existance, those guys would jump into any duel they could find whether they were invited or not. It has neither the variety or complexity of MA fights.

Not quite right, either. Base capture, just like everything else in the game, was designed as a way to generate combat between the sides.

Not quite right, either. Base capture, just like everything else in the game, was designed as a way to generate combat between the sides.

If they insist in flying in any other arena, they have to accept the fact that land grabers are going to be doing their thing as well. 

Like I said, if that's your thing, go have fun. The only thing I don't like is when the land grab crowd come to the good furball and take out the hangars so the furballers will come help them. It happens every time a good fight gets going.

What do they think 20 guys furballing is?

A lot of fun? Why it is seen as detrimental to land grabbing is what this discussion is all about. On most maps, there are a half dozen or more fields on any given front. Most have no activity going on. Yet if a furball develops between 2 of them, someone will undoubtedly come in, drop the fighter hangars at one of them, and scream for the capture. The guys enjoying the fight keep pushing until they realize they are running out of opponents, at which point most will move on. The base capture crowd slap themselves on the back at what a great thing they did when, in reality, they could have done it at a number of other bases without raining on anybody else's parade.

Regards,

Hammer

Batfink made the opposite argument that land grabbers need furballers in this recent thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258564.0.html
From the constant armchair general whines, I'm not surprised.

But in that thread trotter made pretty good points regarding this question.

Don't sweat it! Base capture types have a quantifiable outcome to justify their exertions. They even get a fancy "in lights" recognition for each capture. So they feel like they are the rulers of the AH world.

See how far they get without the furballers on their side keeping the skies clear. There is no quantifiable data for "kill efficiency", but dedicated A2A types can knock bandits out of the sky exponentially faster than capture types. The kill that will take you two passes and 30 seconds might take a "capture type" two and a half minutes of dead six pursuit, and an entire clip of LA-7 20mm before that kill is made. Keeping the skies clear efficiently, or at the very least maintaining air combat balance, keeps IL-2's and A-20's from busting GV's. All sides play a part in winning the war, and whether furballers care or not, they play a very valuable role.

[Getback]

Wow Murdr, much to read there. I'm not so sure I took it all in. This is hard on an old man's tired eyes.

Let me say I disagree with Zazen somewhat and I also somewhat disagree with MDjoe, The Fugitive. They seem to have opposite views.  I read Batfink's post and am in total agreement I think (Like I said a lot there). However if you ask a dedicated furballer(I honestly dont think this is the right word but we will go with it) they will tell you it's the landgrabbers we don't need and of course the landgrabbers will say the reverse. It's obvious that every country needs some furballers and landgrabbers. I would tilt that overall most landgrabbers do not have the fighter skill that a dedicated furballer has and the furballer does not have the strategy skill that a landgrabber has. Although in many missions some of bishops best fighters are included. If one is to lack a skill set then that philosophy should carry over to the other. Ideally neither should think they own the arena. There is immense satisfaction in "Winning the War". Trotters statement is justified to a point. I don't think they quite feel like rulers though. I think they do take pride in their accomplishment just has fighter would in defeating the enemy in front of him.

I'm still in agreement with what you quoted Hitech saying. It is still the attack on a base that brings about battle. At least mostly and definitely not always. In one of my posts I pointed out that in all my years in AH I have only had about 5 fights that were not related to base attacks. Most of the time it is a base attack that brings about the conflict. I think the "Win the War" aspect was designed for that as well. I think it's a pride thing.

Personally, I don't see Furballers as a wasted resource. If they don't want to join a mission they shouldn't and landgrabbers shouldn't expect it. I sure don't join every mission even though I love those things. I think in Batfink's post you had a situation where the landgrabber let pride get the best of him.

I certainly don't agree with taking down FT or TT for that matter. At least not until the end is nigh. Ghi doesn't prescribe to that either. About half of Joker's and Ghi's missions do not take down hangers. At times it is just necessary for the capture. I have no qualms about doing that. How did they capture the base. Come on at 2 a.m and sneak it with 10 people on?  Almost all of my missions are cv missions. I ask that they take down the FHs inititially and keep the vh down. Generally I go in at bout 5 - 7k so there is plenty of warning. When I advertise my mission I tell them they are probably going to get some kills. That way I get the furballers too.

[grizz441]

I would tilt that overall most landgrabbers do not have the fighter skill that a dedicated furballer has and the furballer does not have the strategy skill that a landgrabber has.

There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage.  I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of.  A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys.  It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room.  How does this strategy ever change?  Furballs are dynamic and always changing.  Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly. 

The perception that the WtW guys are the 'thinkers' while the furballers are just mindless drones turning around in circles couldn't be anymore opposite. 

[helbent]

Well not having read every single reply word for word, Id have to pick this one as my reality.

In other words, rooks are practicing the art of air combat and ignoring the "war."   Sounds like the right approach to me.  What the rooks see as a beautiful forest full of hidden pleasures the bish see as something to be clear-cut.

Well stated, couldnt agree more <S>

[The Fugitive]

You pretty much sum up our missions...we almost never hit fhs...vh at the most and we usually form a wall between town and the base....sometimes they up enough to overwhelm us and get our goons..sometimes they don't...if we never fought I am at a loss to explain our number of kills.....so YES it is a good gameplan...

Fug while I understand Hitech's point of view about multi-wing squads (megasquads), BoPs dont field more then 30 players on squad nite and often less (mid 20's).  Most of our nights are spent defending...we GV alot more on these multi-spawn maps...anyone is welcome to visit our channel and follow us around...they might be suprised...

I only used the Bops because I knew you were in the thread Falcon, but its ALL the mega-squads that need to adopt this plan. On top of that if the Bops are hitting a base, another Bish squad should attack another spot/field again generating move area with a fight in stead of pig pilling on the fight the Bops already may have handled. I hope you do run your missions that way, I hope other learn from your squad and do the same.

Wow Murdr, much to read there. I'm not so sure I took it all in. This is hard on an old man's tired eyes.

Let me say I disagree with Zazen somewhat and I also somewhat disagree with MDjoe, The Fugitive. They seem to have opposite views.  I read Batfink's post and am in total agreement I think (Like I said a lot there). However if you ask a dedicated furballer(I honestly dont think this is the right word but we will go with it) they will tell you it's the landgrabbers we don't need and of course the landgrabbers will say the reverse. It's obvious that every country needs some furballers and landgrabbers. I would tilt that overall most landgrabbers do not have the fighter skill that a dedicated furballer has and the furballer does not have the strategy skill that a landgrabber has. Although in many missions some of bishops best fighters are included. If one is to lack a skill set then that philosophy should carry over to the other. Ideally neither should think they own the arena. There is immense satisfaction in "Winning the War". Trotters statement is justified to a point. I don't think they quite feel like rulers though. I think they do take pride in their accomplishment just has fighter would in defeating the enemy in front of him.

I'm still in agreement with what you quoted Hitech saying. It is still the attack on a base that brings about battle. At least mostly and definitely not always. In one of my posts I pointed out that in all my years in AH I have only had about 5 fights that were not related to base attacks. Most of the time it is a base attack that brings about the conflict. I think the "Win the War" aspect was designed for that as well. I think it's a pride thing.

Personally, I don't see Furballers as a wasted resource. If they don't want to join a mission they shouldn't and landgrabbers shouldn't expect it. I sure don't join every mission even though I love those things. I think in Batfink's post you had a situation where the landgrabber let pride get the best of him.

I certainly don't agree with taking down FT or TT for that matter. At least not until the end is nigh. Ghi doesn't prescribe to that either. About half of Joker's and Ghi's missions do not take down hangers. At times it is just necessary for the capture. I have no qualms about doing that. How did they capture the base. Come on at 2 a.m and sneak it with 10 people on?  Almost all of my missions are cv missions. I ask that they take down the FHs inititially and keep the vh down. Generally I go in at bout 5 - 7k so there is plenty of warning. When I advertise my mission I tell them they are probably going to get some kills. That way I get the furballers too.

I thought we where talking about the community? Sure you personally don't have a problem with furballer types, but there are many who do, and unfortunately they run some of the big squads. GHI is no saint, and I haven't run into Jokers missions enough to lump him into this category. Far too many times I've caught GHI running NOE missions deep into "enemy territory" only to run away to some other undefended spot on the map when people up to defend. 4 against his 10 and they run away ! This type of behavior then shows those that run with him that that is how you run missions. A couple of people who have jumped into his mission start their own squads and how do they run missions? the same way. They are so busy cutting down trees (grabbing bases) that they are missing out on the forest (combat and the struggle against an enemy for that base).

There is nothing wrong with the win the war types, like you said most of your fights are around a base capture. The problem today is more and more people are avoiding the fights by hiding in numbers, or under radar. To many people have gone the path of least resistance and have corupted what the game is all about, COMBAT

[Getback]

There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage.  I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of.  A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys.  It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room.  How does this strategy ever change?  Furballs are dynamic and always changing.  Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly. 

The perception that the WtW guys are the 'thinkers' while the furballers are just mindless drones turning around in circles couldn't be anymore opposite. 

Grizz, I really don't know you. Have you ever ran missions? Actually there is a lot more to it. #1 You have to pick a meaningful target. Base selection is important. If you pick a totally isolated base it may not hold any value. a small isolated base can be rendered ineffective since strats can be taken down easy and fast. So you have to take a base that has strategic value whether that be defensive or offensive. Also, you have to understand the mindset and patterns of the enemy. You have to make a determination of what the enemy is thinking. Tough thing to do and yet necessary. Or maybe even plant a thought in the enemies head. Yes I can do this. Then you need to pick the best way to do it. Do you feign an attack on a nearby base? Do you go noe or at alt? Do you need gv support or air support? You have to get everyone on the same page. No easy task I tell you. Then there is execution. And wow can that go wrong. So you have to get everyone in the same mindset. I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base. Even the goon driver has to have skill. I never leave the goon driving to someone I don't know. I can give some great examples but I will leave it this.

However, I like your thinking on the furballers. I consider myself more of fighter pilot than a landgrabber. I continuously study acm and I continuously study other aspects of the game. However I do both and enjoy both.

Before I had deleted my account my ACM skills had improved remarkably. At least that is the illusion I was under. 

[The Fugitive]

Grizz, I really don't know you. Have you ever ran missions? Actually there is a lot more to it. #1 You have to pick a meaningful target. Base selection is important. If you pick a totally isolated base it may not hold any value. a small isolated base can be rendered ineffective since strats can be taken down easy and fast. So you have to take a base that has strategic value whether that be defensive or offensive. Also, you have to understand the mindset and patterns of the enemy. You have to make a determination of what the enemy is thinking. Tough thing to do and yet necessary. Or maybe even plant a thought in the enemies head. Yes I can do this. Then you need to pick the best way to do it. Do you feign an attack on a nearby base? Do you go noe or at alt? Do you need gv support or air support? You have to get everyone on the same page. No easy task I tell you. Then there is execution. And wow can that go wrong. So you have to get everyone in the same mindset. I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base. Even the goon driver has to have skill. I never leave the goon driving to someone I don't know. I can give some great examples but I will leave it this.

However, I like your thinking on the furballers. I consider myself more of fighter pilot than a landgrabber. I continuously study acm and I continuously study other aspects of the game. However I do both and enjoy both.

Two problems with what you've said here....

1. you are basing what you say on you, not the community. I would be very surprised if 5% of the missions run had even half of the things you mentioned in them. Today most just say "ok everyone up heavy here and we'll take the next base in line". As long as the horde moves together.

2. "I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base." Lets make the game better for everyone, but I'll keep my secrets to myself. I'm glad the trainers don't have this attitude, as well as the majority of players. So in stead of spreading the wealth and teaching others how to go about making good and meaningfull missions you would rather keep that info to yourself.

Granted you may be just saying that so as to keep your post short, but this is part of the problem. even those running the big missions aren't bothering to use any tactics, or stratigys, they just hammer the next base in line.

[Getback]

I thought we where talking about the community? Sure you personally don't have a problem with furballer types, but there are many who do, and unfortunately they run some of the big squads. GHI is no saint, and I haven't run into Jokers missions enough to lump him into this category. Far too many times I've caught GHI running NOE missions deep into "enemy territory" only to run away to some other undefended spot on the map when people up to defend. 4 against his 10 and they run away ! This type of behavior then shows those that run with him that that is how you run missions. A couple of people who have jumped into his mission start their own squads and how do they run missions? the same way. They are so busy cutting down trees (grabbing bases) that they are missing out on the forest (combat and the struggle against an enemy for that base).

There is nothing wrong with the win the war types, like you said most of your fights are around a base capture. The problem today is more and more people are avoiding the fights by hiding in numbers, or under radar. To many people have gone the path of least resistance and have corupted what the game is all about, COMBAT

Nope sure don't have a problem with furballer types (Which is a misnomer if you ask me), Don't have a problem with NOEs, hordes, etc. If someone captures my countries base with an NOE shame on us for not paying attention. As far as hordes go. They have always been there. Must have been the first thing someone figured out   People in hordes get tired of them pretty quickly unless they are about to win the war. Personally if I'm in a horde I will likely on get one kill if at all. If I go out by myself then I will probably get multiple kills. Like I stated earlier, I rather fly into a horde than be in one.

On the subject of furballers, Murdr made an excellent point there. They have an impact on the game no matter the mindset. From Batfinks post, it can even be a positive one in the mind of the landgrabber. I will say in a FT environment it less of an impact on overall game play but they are doing what they enjoy.

It is about the community, fly the way you enjoy and allow others to do the same. I've stayed on message I think the whole way through this thread. Again, I was just trying to point out an observation. Which most posters seem to either ignore or just don't like.

The game is about combat and strategy. I don't think it's irony that the countries are named after chess pieces though.

[Getback]

Two problems with what you've said here....

1. you are basing what you say on you, not the community. I would be very surprised if 5% of the missions run had even half of the things you mentioned in them. Today most just say "ok everyone up heavy here and we'll take the next base in line". As long as the horde moves together.

2. "I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base." Lets make the game better for everyone, but I'll keep my secrets to myself. I'm glad the trainers don't have this attitude, as well as the majority of players. So in stead of spreading the wealth and teaching others how to go about making good and meaningfull missions you would rather keep that info to yourself.

Granted you may be just saying that so as to keep your post short, but this is part of the problem. even those running the big missions aren't bothering to use any tactics, or strategies, they just hammer the next base in line.

1. Well, yes I am basing it on me. I will let others speak for themselves. I will say Falcon23 goes through the same routine. Although I think I am far more creative.

2. Okay I will give out my tactics, I was insulating myself there. Cause buddy I am going to get hammered. I might as well say ouch now.

You see a base flashing with no radar. So you up an ILII and head to town to kill a tank but before you get there the town is captured. You say what the heck, It just started flashing. That was me, I killed the town out of radar alarm range with a panzer. Blame Mugz, he taught me that btw. You ever successfully defend a base where the two bases radar ranged overlapped and no gv spawn near? You then think I am taking this fight to the bish. Lets go boys. But when you get there and start to fight the base you defended is captured. That was me driving an m3 from the one base to the other. You ever have a high cap over a base looking for a goon and no gv spawn near. But it gets captured anyway, that is me again in an m3.
You ever see a plane flying over a factory near the radar range of a base, that would be my comrade playing decoy while I am tearing down the town in an osty. You think well just a milkrunner since there is no gv spawn to the base. Told you I can get into your head.

With the panzer I have taken many ports with no gv spawn simply by staying out of dar alarm range and shelling the ack, the vh, and then the manned ack in that order. Generally I have comrade beside me in an m3. We simply just walk in and drop the troops.

So many maps have spawns to factories or to bases that aren't really all that far to the base beside it. When maps don't I call it Getback proof. One key thing is I try to leave the water tower up. So when someone glances at the town and sees the water tower they think the town is up. Learned that from Falcon23. I can take that down with my m3 on the way in.

Ever see my squad name? It's MGVA. Stands for Marathon Ground Vehicles Association. Was a running joke with in the Rolling Thunder community. This is one of the reasons I don't mind hordes. Helps my cause when everyone goes to one base. I've played a huge roll in wining wars with these tactics.

So there you have it. Are you willing to do it. Probably not. For most it is boring. For me it's pure exhilaration and adrenaline. It gets so intense sometimes I shake. I mean I just drove a half hour or more and it could fail because of just one upper.

Let me give you an example. One day RT ran a mission to a base where the radar range overlapped. There is no gv spawn there. They got the town down in short order but the goon was killed and the Rooks upped in mass. Not to be thwarted I spawned in from one base to the base the rooks were attacking. But the spawn is only about 15 miles from the target base. I have about 40 minutes to get there. No biggie. But about a third of the way there I see a low ki. So I stop. But golly he sure sounds close. So I jump into the pintle gun and swing around to see a spit diving on me. I ping the spit and he crashes into a tree behind me. I now have been spotted. Do I continue. Well the Ki never came down so I think the guy in the spit didn't tell anyone. So I continue but I take a longer route out of the usual flight path. Is the town going to pop? It's getting close. I sat over a hill looking at the town. It's still down. Is there a werble in town? I don't see anything but it's now or never. I run into town while several planes pass off to the seaside and drop troops. It takes. Gawd was that intense. I could barely talk afterwards. Now you think the town is flashing so someone should have looked. However remember the radars overlap so what they probably thought it was just a con near radar range.

Now Bj229 caught me one day btw. I killed is hurricane and then his ILII, Rotten rascal comes back in an m8 and kills my osty. He just couldn't let it go. 

[moot]

With all due respect Getback.. And this risks getting some people all winded up to talk smack.. Those are all cheap tricks.  Panzer?  The M4 puts the Panzer's long range shelling to shame.  Move the head position in the turret up as far as it will go, hit F8 for pan mode, pan down to focus back on the sights and voila, extra long range like no other HE self-propelled gun in the game with the same optics accuracy as default head position.

Anyone who's played a number of scenarios knows all about the decoy mind games, too. Years old textbook trick.

These tricks aren't inherently more difficult to understand than furballing, and they're not a matter of split second assessment/decision like you get in air combat.

[Getback]

With all due respect Getback.. And this risks getting some people all winded up to talk smack.. Those are all cheap tricks.  Panzer?  The M4 puts the Panzer's long range shelling to shame.  Move the head position in the turret up as far as it will go, hit F8 for pan mode, pan down to focus back on the sights and voila, extra long range like no other HE self-propelled gun in the game with the same optics accuracy as default head position.

Anyone who's played a number of scenarios knows all about the decoy mind games, too. Years old textbook trick.

These tricks aren't inherently more difficult to understand than furballing, and they're not a matter of split second assessment/decision like you get in air combat.

Cheap tricks, yeah I know but effective.  Never said I invented them. Most of what I learned I learned from others first. I don't think I've tried it in an m4, Have to do that when I return. I did try it in a Tiger and something else. Neither could do it.

Of course way different than furballing. Nothing like a long drive in the country. They get great gas mileage too. These are things I do but by no means all the time. I enjoy every thing the game has to offer.

[Shuffler]

lol bloated idea of self importance.

[oTRALFZo]

Let me give you an example. One day RT ran a mission to a base where the radar range overlapped. There is no gv spawn there. They got the town down in short order but the goon was killed and the Rooks upped in mass. Not to be thwarted I spawned in from one base to the base the rooks were attacking. But the spawn is only about 15 miles from the target base. I have about 40 minutes to get there. No biggie. But about a third of the way there I see a low ki. So I stop. But golly he sure sounds close. So I jump into the pintle gun and swing around to see a spit diving on me. I ping the spit and he crashes into a tree behind me. I now have been spotted. Do I continue. Well the Ki never came down so I think the guy in the spit didn't tell anyone. So I continue but I take a longer route out of the usual flight path. Is the town going to pop? It's getting close. I sat over a hill looking at the town. It's still down. Is there a werble in town? I don't see anything but it's now or never. I run into town while several planes pass off to the seaside and drop troops. It takes. Gawd was that intense. I could barely talk afterwards. Now you think the town is flashing so someone should have looked. However remember the radars overlap so what they probably thought it was just a con near radar range.

Now Bj229 caught me one day btw. I killed is hurricane and then his ILII, Rotten rascal comes back in an m8 and kills my osty. He just couldn't let it go. 

There ya go..proof RT IS better than Jokers.

[Bronk]

There ya go..proof RT IS gamier than Jokers.

[Getback]

lol bloated idea of self importance.

He asked for my tactics I told him. That's it. I also said I would get hammered. Can you do anything at all besides attack the messenger. Try real hard. I have faith in you.