What does it take to perk?

[Bronk]

Oh yeah, you'll find me at 40k in my 47N.   Anyway, here ya go:

P47N   1.86
109 K-4   1.57
TA152   1.57
F4U-4   1.54
Spit XIV   1.49
P51B   1.38
P51D   1.25
P47D-11   1.04
190D-9   1.01
Tempest   1.01
P47D-25   0.99
P47D-40   0.99
P38J   0.69
P38L   0.69
F4U-1   0.56
F4U-1A   0.56
Spit IX   0.53
YAK 9U   0.53
F4U-1C   0.45
F4U-1D   0.45
190A-5   0.45
LA7   0.45
Spit XVI   0.45
Typhoon   0.45
109 G-14   0.40
109 G-2   0.37
C205   0.32
190A-8   0.32
190F-8   0.29
Spit VIII   0.27
P38G   0.19
109 F-4   0.05
109 G-6   0.00
KI84   -0.05
LA5   -0.05
F6F   -0.21
P-39Q   -0.29
Mossie   -0.45
C202   -0.48
KI61   -0.58
110 G   -0.61
N1K2   -0.61
Seafire IIC   -0.61
Spit V   -0.61
YAK 9T   -0.74
P-39D   -0.85
Spit I   -0.90
P40E   -1.11
A6M5   -1.14
109 E-4   -1.27
110 C   -1.27
P40B   -1.41
A6M2   -1.67
Hurri IIC   -1.67
Hurri I   -1.81
FM2   -1.88
Hurri IID   -1.94
F4F   -1.99

There are always a couple that skew the results. We discussed that point before.

[Karnak]

Why are 1940 aircraft even being included in a discussion of late war aircraft?  They have no place there.

[Lusche]

Why are 1940 aircraft even being included in a discussion of late war aircraft?  They have no place there.

Because they are part of the LW arena planeset?

[5PointOh]

PERK THE P40!

[SmokinLoon]

Ah yes...this old debate.

If one were to sit back and look at what is perked and how ENY scoring is applied, a whole host of inconsistancies is sure to be quite obvious.

HTC seems to perk planes that dont need to be perked, not perk planes that probably need to be perked, apply high ENY (20<) to planes that do well and low ENY (15>) that do not do so well.

The Spit14 is the biggest "huh?" when it comes to perked planes.
The P47N is the biggest "wtf?" when it comes to low ENy planes (5 ENY).
The Fw190A-8 has to be the most under-rated killer in the game with a 31 ENY.  Some will say the Bf109K-4.

As to what planes *should* be perked??? If one were to look at the actual **combat** capabilities of a plane and not the stats of the MA (which imo, are NOT completely condusive to rating a plane), planes like the La7 and Spit16 stand out amongst the crowd.  The Nik2 "George" as well but to a lesser extent due to its top speed.  No other plane can do what the La7 can do.  It is amongst the fastest in the game, it accels very well, it turns well both sustained and stalled (top 3rd), and has the ability to mount 3/20mm cannons.  It matters not that "newbs" fly the plane.  The performance capabilities of the plane is what it is.  As far as the Spit16 goes, it too is fast (the top speed can be misleading because it retains E very well and usually can catch "faster" planes that accel much slower or dont retain E as well), accels very well, rolls as well as any 190, divers well, turns very well, has dual 20mm and dual .50 cals with marginal ammo.  No other plane can do as many things as well as the Spit16 can.  The Spitfire Mk XVI is the light heavy-weight boxer that can mix it up vs the featherweights or can pound it out vs the super heavy-weights.  Oh, and the Spit16 can carry 3/bombs for a 1k load, too.  That is three dead tanks with still enough performance to evade/engage enemy air cons. Impressive.  Am I calling for a "perk X plane"?  Perhaps.  If so, I'd suggest an ever so small 3-5 perk point be applied. 

Also, take a look at what is currently perked: the CHog has 4/20mm cannons with truck loads of ammo.  Otherwise, it isnt all that in the air.  It climbs like grandma on the stairs and it accelerates like grandpa in a wheelchair.  It has decent speed and a great dive ability.  Yeah, it can turn amongst the best with much level pullin' and button pushin', but even then most planes can get inside before all the C-Hog's ideal flight perameters for turning are in place.  But those guns... wow.  So here we have a plane that is somewhat 1 dimensional that is perked (it is perked for one reason).  Hmm.  Just how often would a person pick the C-Hog over the Spit16 to dogfight in?  I know I'd pick the Spit16.  Who would pick the George over the C-Hog?  I would.

My point is, no matter how many cross sections, stat comparisons, historical numbers, MA/DA/eetc numbers, public opinions, or FACTS that are thrown at HTC, they will do as they wish and the rest of us can study for hours and to "what and why" and simply waste our time.

The simple fact that HTC wont give any rhyme of reason for their inaccurate and inconsistant scoring system should shed some light on the matter.   

[Anaxogoras]

Loon, the XVI does not retain energy well.  It has lots of positives, but that's not one of them.  Perhaps you mean to say that it does not bleed much airspeed from a high g turn?

Here are the Z-scores for energy retention.  Each plane was dove to 5k ft (I used a map with alt start), leveled off, and when it slowed to 400mph the engine was cut.  Then I recorded the time to reach 150mph.

Mossie   3.22
P38L   2.71
P38J   2.70
P38G   2.50
110 G   2.39
110 C   2.13
P47N   0.68
P47D-25   0.57
P47D-40   0.56
P47D-11   0.47
F4U-1A   0.43
F4U-1   0.40
190F-8   0.39
F4U-1C   0.28
190A-8   0.26
F4U-1D   0.25
F6F   0.25
F4U-4   0.24
TA152   0.20
190A-5   0.13
LA7   -0.05
KI61   -0.06
P51D   -0.06
P51B   -0.11
190D-9   -0.20
LA5   -0.21
109 K-4   -0.27
Spit XIV   -0.28
N1K2   -0.32
C205   -0.34
109 G-14   -0.36
C202   -0.38
109 G-6   -0.39
109 G-2   -0.44
109 F-4   -0.50
YAK 9T   -0.51
KI84   -0.52
Spit VIII   -0.55
Tempest   -0.56
Typhoon   -0.57
F4F   -0.58
FM2   -0.60
P-39D   -0.63
Spit IX   -0.63
Spit XVI   -0.63
P-39Q   -0.66
109 E-4   -0.67
P40B   -0.67
P40E   -0.68
YAK 9U   -0.71
Seafire IIC   -0.73
Spit V   -0.82
Spit I   -0.92
Hurri IID   -0.99
A6M5   -1.00
Hurri IIC   -1.02
A6M2   -1.03
Hurri I   -1.08

[BnZs]

Anax, once again, what does E-retention with the engine switched off have to do with anything practical sense? It does not MATTER if the reason a Spit16 zooms about as well as a Jug is weight/power ratio, all that matters is relative performance under realistic conditions, one realistic condition being that people usually fight with their engines running.

Loon, the XVI does not retain energy well.  It has lots of positives, but that's not one of them.  Perhaps you mean to say that it does not bleed much airspeed from a high g turn?

Here are the Z-scores for energy retention.  Each plane was dove to 5k ft (I used a map with alt start), leveled off, and when it slowed to 400mph the engine was cut.  Then I recorded the time to reach 150mph.

Mossie   3.22
P38L   2.71
P38J   2.70
P38G   2.50
110 G   2.39
110 C   2.13
P47N   0.68
P47D-25   0.57
P47D-40   0.56
P47D-11   0.47
F4U-1A   0.43
F4U-1   0.40
190F-8   0.39
F4U-1C   0.28
190A-8   0.26
F4U-1D   0.25
F6F   0.25
F4U-4   0.24
TA152   0.20
190A-5   0.13
LA7   -0.05
KI61   -0.06
P51D   -0.06
P51B   -0.11
190D-9   -0.20
LA5   -0.21
109 K-4   -0.27
Spit XIV   -0.28
N1K2   -0.32
C205   -0.34
109 G-14   -0.36
C202   -0.38
109 G-6   -0.39
109 G-2   -0.44
109 F-4   -0.50
YAK 9T   -0.51
KI84   -0.52
Spit VIII   -0.55
Tempest   -0.56
Typhoon   -0.57
F4F   -0.58
FM2   -0.60
P-39D   -0.63
Spit IX   -0.63
Spit XVI   -0.63
P-39Q   -0.66
109 E-4   -0.67
P40B   -0.67
P40E   -0.68
YAK 9U   -0.71
Seafire IIC   -0.73
Spit V   -0.82
Spit I   -0.92
Hurri IID   -0.99
A6M5   -1.00
Hurri IIC   -1.02
A6M2   -1.03
Hurri I   -1.08

[Anaxogoras]

Anax, once again, what does E-retention with the engine switched off have to do with anything practical sense? It does not MATTER if the reason a Spit16 zooms about as well as a Jug is weight/power ratio, all that matters is relative performance under realistic conditions, one realistic condition being that people usually fight with their engines running.

Dude, look at the thread in context.  He claimed that the Spitfire XVI retains energy well, and I was just showing him that it doesn't.

The engine has to be shut off to accurately measure energy retention.  Energy retention has practical effects on flight performance...we know that.  Just because the way to test something is impractical for arena play doesn't make what is measured impractical.

The typical way to test firepower is to taxi to a hangar and shoot until it blows up.  Is that practical for arena play?  Heck no.  But you don't see anyone questioning the merit of the test.

[BnZs]

Dude, look at the thread in context.  He claimed that the Spitfire XVI retains energy well, and I was just showing him that it doesn't.

The engine has to be shut off to accurately measure energy retention.  Energy retention has practical effects on flight performance...we know that.  Just because the way to test something is impractical for arena play doesn't make what is measured impractical.

Sorry, I don't see how it is terribly important. How well a plane will zoom or how long it will retain excess speed in a flat-out run from a high-speed dive are what you need to know about relative performance. It little matters whether the plane you are fighting gets its vertical performance mainly from high mass/drag ratio or high thrust/weight ratio, since as far as I can tell they have about equal effects on zoom performance in the game.

[Anaxogoras]

Sorry, I don't see how it is terribly important. How well a plane will zoom or how long it will retain excess speed in a flat-out run from a high-speed dive are what you need to know about relative performance. It little matters whether the plane you are fighting gets its vertical performance mainly from high mass/drag ratio or high thrust/weight ratio, since as far as I can tell they have about equal effects on zoom performance in the game.

That's the ticket.

[Bronk]

Loon, the XVI does not retain energy well.  It has lots of positives, but that's not one of them.  Perhaps you mean to say that it does not bleed much airspeed from a high g turn?

Here are the Z-scores for energy retention.  Each plane was dove to 5k ft (I used a map with alt start), leveled off, and when it slowed to 400mph the engine was cut.  Then I recorded the time to reach 150mph.

Mossie   3.22
P38L   2.71
P38J   2.70
P38G   2.50
110 G   2.39
110 C   2.13
P47N   0.68
P47D-25   0.57
P47D-40   0.56
P47D-11   0.47
F4U-1A   0.43
F4U-1   0.40
190F-8   0.39
F4U-1C   0.28
190A-8   0.26
F4U-1D   0.25
F6F   0.25
F4U-4   0.24
TA152   0.20
190A-5   0.13
LA7   -0.05
KI61   -0.06
P51D   -0.06
P51B   -0.11
190D-9   -0.20
LA5   -0.21
109 K-4   -0.27
Spit XIV   -0.28
N1K2   -0.32
C205   -0.34
109 G-14   -0.36
C202   -0.38
109 G-6   -0.39
109 G-2   -0.44
109 F-4   -0.50
YAK 9T   -0.51
KI84   -0.52
Spit VIII   -0.55
Tempest   -0.56
Typhoon   -0.57
F4F   -0.58
FM2   -0.60
P-39D   -0.63
Spit IX   -0.63
Spit XVI   -0.63
P-39Q   -0.66
109 E-4   -0.67
P40B   -0.67
P40E   -0.68
YAK 9U   -0.71
Seafire IIC   -0.73
Spit V   -0.82
Spit I   -0.92
Hurri IID   -0.99
A6M5   -1.00
Hurri IIC   -1.02
A6M2   -1.03
Hurri I   -1.08

Did you reduce rpm to minimize  prop drag?

[Anaxogoras]

No.

[Bronk]

No.

IMO you should try. This would minimize the props drag effect and get a better estimate on an airframe's E retention.

Edit : IIRC twin engine ac auto feather the prop when the engine is off. Thus minimizing prop drag.
Notice the top ones on this latest list.

[Ghosth]

At the point where HTC perked the F4U-1C almost half off all sorties flown were in the 1c.
Not to mention that it had as I remember over half of all kills as well.
I'm sure Lusche can come up with the official numbers if someone really wants them.

At no point since release has the spit 16 or La7 even come close to those numbers.
In point of fact, NO plane has ever really approached those numbers again. Now if the tempest had been released unperked, yes it might have given the 1C a run for top marks. But with its lower ammo count, and limited turn, I doubt it.

If it had been up to me, I'd of either left the spit 16 out of the plane set, or set it with a light perk.
As it did make some  game play changes that were not for the better IMHO. Planes in the middle of the pack, that could outrun the turners, and out turn the runners suddenly had a new bad boy on the block to fear. One that did everything just a bit better, and climbed better to boot!


The La7 never really affected gameplay other than pony's learned not to be low and slow, which was not healthy for them before anyway. The La7 has balancing characteristics that help self limit it. Those are not hispano 20mm's  and they don't shoot like it. They don't pack the same punch, they don't have the flat ballastics, and they are not near as good at longer range. It has no ability to carry drop tanks, and the fuel burn makes it mostly useless for long range attacks. None of which is true for the spit 16.

What I propose, seeing as how HTC has the ability to do nifty pop up polls.

Is first run a poll to see which plane most would like to see perked.
Top choices could be Spit 16, La7, 190D9, 109K4, etc.

Second run a poll to see how high, 1 perk, 3 perks, 5 perks etc.

Power to the people! Viva la Revolution!

Give the people a chance once a year to have an effect on what planes are perked.
Who knows, it might be good for business!

[oakranger]

i do see where you taking this ghosth.  If there anything i see more often in spit IIX, IX or XVI.  But i do die from the spit XVI the most. La 7 are not that hard to fight.  you just need to know when engaged it and when not.
 I say that HiTech should do a poll on what should be perk and how much.