Spitfires in tour 110: Late war

[SectorNine50]

The Spitfire Mk XVI has been in AH for more than two years now.  That is anything but new.

And you, as a well established Spitfire hater who advocates against any Spitfire suggestion that isn't a direct attack on them, have no standing to comment on them.

See that's the problem.  You have no right to say that he can't comment on them.  If he were saying something utterly absurd like "the spit 16 is faster than a 262," then you'd have the right to say he has no reason to comment as it's obviously wrong.  If someone dislikes something, there is always a reason.  It's impossible to actually dislike something if your making up facts, which no one here has done.

He hasn't brought up a single point as to why they should be perked, just his feelings that they are double plus good.

The counter points have been made over and over and over and over.  It does not dominate the kill/death percentages, it does not dominate the kill/death ratio, it is very strong in some ways and average or even weak in other ways.  He categorically dismisses anything that doesn't support his conclusion.

With this thinking, you still haven't brought up a single reason why it shouldn't be perked.  It may not dominate with a K/D, but then again it's been solidly identified as an aircraft beginners use extensively, skewing it's numbers.  Everything you stated after this is your feelings, just like his.  He is using the term "double plus good" loosely, as he had stated in the past.  It's not exactly double plus good, it's just better than most in almost all aspects.  You are completely dismissing what others have said with the excuse that it is not "unbalancing," which is a completely vague and truly undefined phrase that can be bended any way the user sees fit.  The only way to look at it objectively is to compare to what we already know to be true.

Also, at no time was BnZ out-of-line, and there is no reason to attack him for having a discussion.

Keep it civil guys, no reason to loose our cool over this.

[goober69]

Tempests, C-Hogs, 4-Hogs and Ponies are the predominant rides. Most of them coming in from about 17k or higher (couple guys in particular I've seen called out on that, too). Most of them make a couple BnZ passes through to pick up their two kills, then run like hell if they encounter a co-alt and e con.

 

that's why i fly the spit 16 there all the time lol that and the spit8 i feel that it's not a superior ride to those planes but it feeds my ego and lets me feel like i kind of sort of maybe have a chance when im on the deck.
oh yea and the 109 k4 and g6 are a ton of fun to kill squeekers with in there lol

and for more fun i take a temp and play the try to out turn eveyrthing game. thats awesome man

been a while since i was in game i miss it


perk it or un perk it perks are easy to giet i dont care too much i dont think personaly that it deserves one while it is one of the BEST planes in the game. it is fragile and has low feul range i personaly much prefer the spit 8 because i like long sorties. the c hog i think could be lowered to a cheaper perk. eh but what do i care my favorite hog is the 1a

[SlapShot]

With this thinking, you still haven't brought up a single reason why it shouldn't be perked.

The thing is, HT and Pyro have already made a decision to not perk it ... which, by default, puts the oness on those who want it perked to prove why it needs to be perked ... and from what I have read though all the "Perk the Spit 16" posts, no one has really proved anything in the context in which a plane needs to be perked,within the context of this game.

It may not dominate with a K/D, but then again it's been solidly identified as an aircraft beginners use extensively, skewing it's numbers. 

This statement, in and of itself, proves that the Spit 16 is far from a plane that has such a dramatic effect on the game/gameplay that it needs to be perked ... and that is the point that those who have voiced that the Spit 16 does not need to be perked are saying.

You can throw out all the specs and data you want on a particular aircraft and in the total scheme of things ... it means squat ... does a plane complete dominate an arena with excessive numbers and at the same time, does it kill just about everything in it's path with excessive frequency ?

You are completely dismissing what others have said with the excuse that it is not "unbalancing," which is a completely vague and truly undefined phrase that can be bended any way the user sees fit.

There is nothing vague about the term "unbalancing" when taken in context to this game and gameplay. If one does not understand what "unbalancing" means in this context, it is because one does want to admit that, if applied, ends this discussion and "Perk the LA7" discussion immediately ... and that's not what they want.

Also, at no time was BnZ out-of-line, and there is no reason to attack him for having a discussion.

Except for when he was pompous enough to call some very educated people, on this subject, who brought good facts to the table ... not as smart as he.

Keep it civil guys, no reason to loose our cool over this.

If you were referring to KarnaK with this statement, you are so far off base.

Anytime I see a "Perk the LA7" - "Perk the Spit16" (it was the Spit 9 previously) I think ... "CRYBABY"

[moot]

The thing is, HT and Pyro have already made a decision to not perk it ... which, by default, puts the oness on those who want it perked to prove why it needs to be perked ... and from what I have read though all the "Perk the Spit 16" posts, no one has really proved anything in the context in which a plane needs to be perked,within the context of this game.

It's really not worth more than 1 perk.  Maybe make it and all the other 5 ENY planes worth 1 perk.

[jam934]

Who cares what plane another player likes whats point to this post its not like your paying there subscription to Hightech.

[jam934]

Considering the planes in question are NEW planes, compared to the other planes being used as baselines and other reference points, it is NOT up to the folks advocating change. The change was thrust upon us by the introduction of the new plane. Thus the onus lies evenly upon both sides to prove their argument.

Your argument thus stands as an insult claiming anybody disagreeing with you is fixated, and that the argument is absurd.

So far BnZs has been more analytical and clear on his point of view. I agree with most of the points he's made in this thread so far (and trust me we don't agree on everything).

He's brought up very valid points, and you simply say "you're fixated on an absurd point" -- without providing any counterpoints of your own. You have yet to prove why this spit16/8 (as a combo or just the 16) should remain unperked.

I think we should perk Runstangs whats the difference guys scream in from 25k the run to the deck and do again lol

[RTHolmes]

Anytime I see a "Perk the LA7" - "Perk the Spit16" (it was the Spit 9 previously) I think ... "CRYBABY"

... i always think "Perk the D Pony!"

[RTHolmes]

seriously though - is the XVI any more perkworthy than the LA7 in MA usage?

[Anaxogoras]

The thing is, HT and Pyro have already made a decision to not perk it ... which, by default, puts the oness on those who want it perked to prove why it needs to be perked ... and from what I have read though all the "Perk the Spit 16" posts, no one has really proved anything in the context in which a plane needs to be perked,within the context of this game.

Besides convincing argument that the Spitfire XVI is the equal of some of the cheaply-perked planes...

You can throw out all the specs and data you want on a particular aircraft and in the total scheme of things ... it means squat ... does a plane complete dominate an arena with excessive numbers and at the same time, does it kill just about everything in it's path with excessive frequency ?

So now we've come full circle.  In past discussions there was agreement that who tends to fly a plane should have no effect on its ENY or perk price.  Performance was all that mattered.  It is difficult to hit a moving target.

There is nothing vague about the term "unbalancing" when taken in context to this game and gameplay. If one does not understand what "unbalancing" means in this context, it is because one does want to admit that, if applied, ends this discussion and "Perk the LA7" discussion immediately ... and that's not what they want.

Right, the term is so clear you simply laugh when someone asks you to define it.  Let me play dumb.  Please define "unbalancing" in AH.  But don't just give me examples, I'm too dumb to extrapolate to the principle that makes them examples of "unbalancing."  Please tell me what "unbalancing" is itself.

Anytime I see a "Perk the LA7" - "Perk the Spit16" (it was the Spit 9 previously) I think ... "CRYBABY"

That's a nice way to respond to someone who asks that you keep the conversation civil.  I agree with BnZs that invective is the resort of those who don't have an argument.  Maybe it's time you consider that someone could disagree with you for reasons other than character flaw?   Seriously...

[RTHolmes]

Right, the term is so clear you simply laugh when someone asks you to define it.  Let me play dumb.  Please define "unbalancing" in AH.  But don't just give me examples, I'm too dumb to extrapolate to the principle that makes them examples of "unbalancing."  Please tell me what "unbalancing" is itself.

your callsign suggests you dont have much trouble extrapolating

heres a clear example: aircraft X has 90% of the sorties and a K/D and K/t 5 times the nearest aircraft in each category because of its modelled capabilities, and hence popularity. it is unbalancing because it doesnt promote a mix of aircraft and diverse combat situations, which are some of the aims of this game/sim. it has become aircraft X sim (with a big bunch of hangar queens).

[Lusche]

So now we've come full circle.  In past discussions there was agreement that who tends to fly a plane should have no effect on its ENY or perk price.  Performance was all that mattered.  

There never was such an "agreement"

 Let me play dumb.  Please define "unbalancing" in AH.  But don't just give me examples, I'm too dumb to extrapolate to the principle that makes them examples of "unbalancing."  Please tell me what "unbalancing" is itself.

Slap Shot did.

[Anaxogoras]

There never was such an "agreement"

Well, it can't be both ways.  There's an alternating criterion for perking that people make use of depending on the specific airplane.

On the one hand, when people say "Perk plane x because it's 12% of the arena" we respond "true, but it's popular because of, e.g. its fame, it does not have perkable performance."

Then, when people say "Perk plane x because it has perkable performance" we respond "true, but it's flown by noobs, so that's why it makes up 12% of the arena."

Which is it going to be?

[Lusche]

Both.

There is no simple number that will tell you "perk" or result in specific ENY value. Never will be.
You have to look at the whole picture.

[SlapShot]

Besides convincing argument that the Spitfire XVI is the equal of some of the cheaply-perked planes...

That's the crux ... you may be convinced ... but there is a large contingent that doesn't agree with the "convincing argument" put forth.

So now we've come full circle.  In past discussions there was agreement that who tends to fly a plane should have no effect on its ENY or perk price.  Performance was all that mattered.  It is difficult to hit a moving target.

Please show the "agreement" ... I don't agree at all ... Performance was all that mattered ? ... I don't subscribe to that at all.

Right, the term is so clear you simply laugh when someone asks you to define it.  Let me play dumb.  Please define "unbalancing" in AH.  But don't just give me examples, I'm too dumb to extrapolate to the principle that makes them examples of "unbalancing."  Please tell me what "unbalancing" is itself.

I wasn't laughing at all ... no need to laugh ... it's quite obvious ... here let me say it again ...

Does a plane completely dominate an arena with excessive numbers and at the same time, does it kill just about everything in it's path with excessive frequency ?


If the answer is "yes" ... then it's "unbalancing" and needs to be perked ... and the Spit 16 does not pass that muster.

That's a nice way to respond to someone who asks that you keep the conversation civil.  I agree with BnZs that invective is the resort of those who don't have an argument.  Maybe it's time you consider that someone could disagree with you for reasons other than character flaw?   Seriously...

How was I not "civil" ? ... by pointing out the obvious in reference to his pompous "intellect" statement ? ... sorry about that ... NOT.

[SlapShot]

There never was such an "agreement"

Slap Shot did.

Ok ... Snail Man ...