The Perk Planes

[SnakeEyes]

Ram:

"Comparing apples and oranges" is a way of saying that you are comparing two completely different things and then drawing a similar conclusion that isn't necessarily justified.  The tone (IMO) is one of disagreement, but not one of any disdain.

In terms of why I think they're apples and oranges, you cannot compare real production aircraft (like the C.205 and P-80) to an aircraft like the Go-229 where the prototype for the production model never even flew.  The closest thing to the Go-229 that actually flew was the Horton HO IX (most historians feel that the Ho IX designation is the correct one for the prototype, and because the production was to be carried out by Gotha, the production aircraft would have been called the Go-229, and not the Ho-229, just FYI) v1 and v2.  The Ho IX v1 was a glider, the Ho IX v2 was a powered prototype.  The v2 prototype was smaller than the v3, powered by different engines, and with a different shape... so any data that exists for it would not necessarily apply to the v3.

With regard to the C.205, I can only say that I would assume that HTC found a reasonable amount of real data that would enable them to model the C.205 with a good degree of fidelity.

I'm all for fantasy aircraft, but I think it's a bit much to expect HTC to build aircraft that never ever flew.  At that point AH/WB/WW2Online becomes little more than the Warbird Construction Kit where they dump in some numbers and see what comes out... and while that might be interesting, that's a far cry from modeling that actually flew (like the P-80, Ta-152, etc.).

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Toad]

Bottom Line?

As someone above said, the Luftweenies just cannot accept a game in which their aircraft are not at the top of the food chain. That's all this argument is, really.

They throw in "what if" and "if only" and "production difficult cause we were getting bombed on a daily basis"...but the bottom line is they don't want to see anything "allied" that performs better than their "dream machines".

For example, the F4U-4 would be a nightmare in this arena environment.

The facts? The allies KNEW they had it won long before D-Day (although a long tough, row had yet to be hoed) and a decision was made to maximize present production (which was doing the job quite nicely, thank you) and ease off on the development of new hardware.

The 262 almost upset the apple cart, though. My father-in-law flew with the 303rd BG and he had lots of respect for that one. But the response was just to bomb the factories and airfields even more and cap the 262 fields. It never became the threat that it could have become because the cause was simply lost by then. The numbers just weren't there.

That's what you Luftweenies keep forgetting...the cause was lost by '44 (some might say late '43)  and the issue was never in doubt.  That explains the aircraft that resulted...on both sides. Germany kept trying to pull rabbits out of the hat and the allies just built more of what was working even faster.

Now, did this post tick off enough people?

 

Have a nice day!

[RAM]

Toad...did you took some 5 minutes to read my previous posts? you are calling me "luftweenie" and you still havent read a single post I've posted here.

 

Originally posted by RAM:
LEt see. You say that up to 1942 Germany had better planes than Britain ,and I must agree.BUT (and in this discussion the but is a BIG one) the gap between British planes and German's was always a very little one, Me109E was better that SpitI, but not by much. Me109F waa better than SpitV but NOT by much. Fw190A was a nightmare for SpitV but SpitIX made again the gap a little one until the point that in mid 1943 SpitfireIX and Fw190A5 were regarded as equals.

When latewar came Britain produced the SPitfireXIV, a plane that far outclassed any German fighter it could find (range was a problem in history, but not in MA)...the gap was immense between German fighters and Spitfire XIV's performance..Germany lasted some 8 months in delivering a plane that could close that gap with the spit and at least to level the game against the P51, the Dora-9. Still if you see the numbers, Spitfire XIV is better in all regards than D9 except rollrate and range. IN ALL REGARDS!!!...

You say that latewar stuff was better in allied side, and that was the reason because they won the war. I agree, zig, It is a sound argument. But THIS IS NOT WWII!! this is a simulator in wich you fly against other planes! so to make it an interesting simulator you have to keep the planeset levelled or you'll end flying allied latewar stuff, and more if you perk low-numbers planes as Ta152 while you dont do it with P47M or Spitfire XIV.

[/b]


Go and read my previous posts. Then edit your post. And please next time read the thread before posting it it.

I have the feeling that people simply jump over my posts and dont read them just because they dont like what I think. It is more than clear that you didnt read my previous posts, Toad. and I wonder why. And more seriously I wonder why do you post here if you dont know what did I say in this matter.

 


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-18-2000).]

[Duckwing6]

well i read them all RAM and you'r a LUFT-Winer ...

seriously .. if it was there during the war it should be in the sim .. but only to the point that it had to have seen some combat .. and i don't mean 1 test flight (oh man put the Go229 back into the SWOTL box)..

I'm not a Spit fan either .. and my F4U-1D will be seriously outclassed but well that's just another challenge.

[Toad]

Oh, I've read 'em. And read 'em. And read 'em. And read 'em.

And they all pretty much say the same thing don't they?

In another recent thread, I see you've brought back one of your old favorites...you're going to quit AH if things don't go your way. Give me your address, I'll send ya a box of Kleenex.

If you read MY message, I didn't say a single thing about the "Perk System" to be. There's two basic points there.

1) The LW worshippers never relax until a LW plane is at the top of the MA food chain AND

2)there is a basic, obvious reason why Germany HAD to try stuff that was basically experimental while the Allies could just keep building more of what was already doing the job.

(Go ahead, go back and reread it.)

I am content to let HTC put the perk thing in the game, adjust by trial and error and then move on to more and better things. I sorta think it's going to be scary to see guys like Torque and Mitsu in the top rides, but hey, I'm more than willing to give it a whirl, because "Hey, those HTC guys are GOOD!"

(Pay attention, now I'm going to say something about the "Perk System")

I would allow EVERYTHING that saw any WW2 combat into the MA, with no restrictions. Suprised??? (...and a LW plane would probably be the killer ride, so you could finally stow your sodden hanky.)

That would definitely change the game. It would probably lead to a rolling plane set or some other, newer innovation. Which is how the genre grows. Like with HTC's "perk" idea, for example. Growth.

It might work out really well. It might be a mistake that leads us down a "false trail" for a while but eventually it would be corrected. It might take a little juggling with which planes are "perks". You'd have to try it to see how it evolves. Of course, how silly of me... I forgot...you're going to quit if it doesn't go your way from the very start, right?

I personally don't care if they "perk" or don't. Put 'em ALL in there! Cry "Havoc" and let slip the dogs of war!

Have a nice day!  

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Duckwing6:


seriously .. if it was there during the war it should be in the sim .. but only to the point that it had to have seen some combat .. and i don't mean 1 test flight (oh man put the Go229 back into the SWOTL box)..

 

Originally posted by RAM:
hummm...I dont thing P80 would be ok as perk plane...
of course I think just the same about Go229.

<Sigh>...Noone reads what I write...


For me this thread is history, I am TIRED. Not only you dont see my point,but still I am insulted when I try to explain it.

Toad I'd tell you what you can do with your kleenex. But I think Its better I dont do it.

<RAM puts the IGNORE MODE ON>

Bring the F15 into AH...you know what? I dont mind a toejam.

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
 <Sigh>...Noone reads what I write...

Apparently, you would HAVE to include yourself in that statement.

Have a REALLY nice day!  

[RAM]

<POST ERASED DUE TO IGNORE MODE ON>

[Toad]

My point EXACTLY!

[Zigrat]

Toad, I do not always agree with RAM, but i think you're not quite correct either. I don't think your statement about luftwaffe pilots walways wanting uber planes etcera are quite correct. Personally, I just wanna see the airplanes perform like they should historically. I fly all manner of planes, from p38 to jug to 190. But currently, well i often get frustrated by mustang drivers since they usuallly just run   Many say the a5 is uber, but its really not, any US iron can catch the a5 in a chase, I know i have chased many down in the jug   So what the LW boys want is a plane that can catch all the runstangs out there and nail em   Me, when i know astang is aorund i wanna kill i will grab a stang myself since im not tied to one country's airplanes, but some prefer to fly only 1 nationality, so they should be given a plane that can catch those runners.

[Vermillion]

Here is the one I think is really stupid.

The P-47 N/M relegated to a perk plane?

A plane varient that had more aircraft see combat than the Fw190D9 AND the Me109K4 put together !!

The two mainstays of the Luftwaffe in online flight sims (at least as they are flown in our sims, I know in reality it was different).

Totally asinine.

Oh and RAM, you can have your Ta-152. Please do   But For the umpteenth million time, check out the factory test data for the aircraft. The 152 absolutly stank at the altitudes we most commonly see fighting in the arena. Especially if you consider that it should be a 152H0, since the H1 that so many of you quote numbers from, since the H1 mostly likely never saw combat. And thats straight from a German author using Focke-Wulf factory documents.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 07-18-2000).]

[SnakeEyes]

Verm:

I didn't include the 47M/N in my list because it so clearly outperforms the other non-perk aircraft listed.  IMO the approach to making an a/c perk and/or non-perk should be moreso based on performance than whether it saw combat or not.

Interestingly, while Ram keeps shouting about what a "MONSTER" the XIV is (and, frankly, I think he is somewhat overrating it), the 47M is the single prop a/c on the list that truly is a Monster.

For a good read (I especially recommend that Luftwobbles read this if they're having constipation problems <G> ) on the P-47M, see:

 http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9485/P-47M.html

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[SnakeEyes]

PS - Note the critical mach cited... I suspect that the 47D was capable of similar... which is again why I wonder how the 109G10 supposedly outdives the 47D in AH.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Toad]

Zig,

You are right. That was too broad a generalization. Not all Luftwaffe afficianados are continual whiners and I apologize to those that I may have offended.

Most people have accepted that fact that the planeset will continue to grow, bringing new challenges and new tactics  to all nationalities. Most know that no one plane is "best" in every single category; all have strengths and weaknesses. Most don't feel the need to have the absolute dominant plane in the game as part of their particular stable; instead they just want a plane in which they can be competitive.

So, I should have been more specific and said "Luftwhiners"...the guys that howl in outrage at every deployment of (ITNSHO) "over-modeled" Allied equipment and wail in anguish when yet another (ITNSHO) "undermodeled" Axis plane appears.  

The guys that have been pleading for the Dora for months, chortling with glee as they tell us how the Dora will sweep the skies, dominating the arena....and then have the nerve to remonstrate the Brits for asking for the Spit XIV, saying it's simply too good and would rule the arena.

That small percentage of players are the guys I meant.  

But I do have one question for you  

 

Originally posted by Zigrat:
So what the LW boys want is a plane that can catch all the runstangs out there and nail em   .... but some prefer to fly only 1 nationality, so they should be given a plane that can catch those runners.

OK, so when the LW gets their plane "that can catch those runners" then obviously the Mustang guys that are now being caught can legitimately request and receive a new plane to catch the plane that is catching them?

If so, I'm with Verm and SnakeEyes...give me the P-47M!

Really though, of the 6 nationalities in the present planeset, how would you rank them with respect to needing a more competitive aircraft?

I'd have to say the Italians, Japanese and Russians should be duking it out for the first three places in line. The Brits and the Jerrys would be tussling over the 4th and 5th positions and the Yanks would lean against the wall in the number 6 slot, cleaning their fingernails and whistling.  

BTW, can I bribe you to show me that 38 move?  

Cya up there!

[Gorf]

F8F...F8F...sooo what.  GIvE ME the F7F!! F7F people.  F7f was closer to combat then the F8F was!

Gorf