Request for AP ammo for the MG151/20 cannon

[Wilbus]

Couldn't agree more DB.

As to the Osti, like DB said it has an open top, and even if a HE 30mm Mk108 couldn't penetrate the armor there it would most surely destroy that 37mm gun and/or blow up the ammonition for it.
If you have actually seen the blast power from a 30mm (pictures from single 30mm hits on 4 engined heavy bombers etc) and you'd know that 1 single it up in the osti would either destroy the gun or the ammonition.

Allso, 1x30mm on the top of a Panzer would most likely take out that 30 cal MG, I put about 20x30mm rounds on top of a tank and he could still use the 30 cal gun.

Dammage modelling needs some serious tweaking.



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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 Eismeer

[Vermillion]

Ok you Luftwaffe fans, get it straight which way you want it  

Ever since this game has come outta beta, there have been continuous complaints that the MG151 was not shooting exclusively mine shells.

Now you want AP instead?

Which is it?  

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ok you Luftwaffe fans, get it straight which way you want it  

Ever since this game has come outta beta, there have been continuous complaints that the MG151 was not shooting exclusively mine shells.

Now you want AP instead?

Which is it?  

If I could choose it, I would choose less lethal Hispano rounds, to get game more accurate.

[brady]

 The option to chose your ammo load out would be best for one and all I think.

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[This message has been edited by brady (edited 03-12-2001).]

[funked]

LOL

[-ammo-]

here is an exterior ballistics file that computes Kinetic Energy, bullet drop, recoil, and many other options with are really irrelevant to anything but the big game hunter. However numbers don't lie and I would love to punch holes in fishu's (and other LW lobbyist) dream that the mauser somehow on par with the hispano   Of coarse I am sure that they will ignore this as they have other evidence also. Now keep in mind that HE rounds have a specific application and they sacrifice other attributes that AP or BALL ammo have. Like superior penetration. Combined with the fact that the the  Hispano has over TWICE the energy as the mauser from the muzzle to any range it is no surprise that it outperformed the 151. Now also a given is that both rounds were very destructive on AC, it really matters not that one outperforms the other unless for the sake of endless argument...which we have all been subject too ever since this debate was intiated in the flight sim world. Both rounds cut ac skins to shreds. Now in the case of armor, the current way AH has modeled the guns and projectiles the hispano has the clear advantage and rightfully so. Its faster, the projectiles Sectional density, velocity, and weight are greater. All that means is it is like comparing geting hit by a heavy 18 wheeler( hispano) traveling at 100 MPH as opposed to a volkswagon (mauser) at 70 MPH.

here is the file, notice the kinetic energy, the path of the bullet, recoil...etc. It all means that the hispano IS SUPERIOR to the mauser. I probably should start anothner thread for this though. The numbers were collected from sources online, namely Tony Williams discussion board where he has posted velocity, Ballistic Coefficients, projectile weights...etc... the excell file does the computations.

 ballistics

   



[This message has been edited by -ammo- (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Fishu]

How many times do I have to say that I have no doubt that Hispano was better than MG151/20?
Only difference here is just that Hispano is blowing up the tanks beyond belief compared to any other cannon.
and yes.. Hispano uses AP ammo, remember the tradeoff between HE and AP?
It wouldn't blow up wings on one hit from above just like that with two hits so often.
how do you explain HE hits then? it would make one big hole on the wing surface (probably through) and I don't think that plane would like some big holes there even if wingtip isnt cut away.

so.. how does Hispano get benefit of HE and AP round while MG151/20 seems to be HE, if even that?
Probably just because of the way damage is modelled.
It doesn't seem to me that theres such thing as 'penetration' effect.. seems just simple as if hits one spot, damage is there, not anywhere else even if bullet would had cut through the plane.
That would of course give some benefit for Hispano.

dont go say that AH does model penetration, since I've shot with BB guns right into spits nose so that its rear fuselage has blown off..
That would had required BB rounds go through engine block AND the fuel tank. (fuel tank in spitfires is nicely placed in front of the pilot)


so, quit claiming that I am comparing MG151/20 and Hispano to anywhere equal.
besides, same lack is with ShVAK's.. they're on the same line with MG151/20
so im not only thinking MG151/20

Its pure bull... that spitfire can knock couple of tanks with its cannons while ground attack Fw190 cant do that at all. (only handsomehunk would load it up with HE when supposed to strafe armored targets)

[GRUNHERZ]

Vermillion very simple answer I want both, as it was explained Hispano has AP and AH modeld as ONE ROUND that is it has full armor penetrating performance of the Hispano AP shell combined with the full explosive power of Hispano HE sheel- ALL IN EACH AND EVERY ROUND. Its quite clear now that MG151 only has the weakest possible HE shell only, no AP shell and no mineshell. So what I want is that MG151 gets the Hispano ammo treatment best case AP combined with best case HE (Minengeschoss) all in one round for each and every round just like HISPANO HAS HAD FROM THE START. Even you will have to agree its only fair since Hispano allready has it, right verm you are concerned with things being fair and equal? Right?

[-ammo-]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
How many times do I have to say that I have no doubt that Hispano was better than MG151/20?
Only difference here is just that Hispano is blowing up the tanks beyond belief compared to any other cannon.
and yes.. Hispano uses AP ammo, remember the tradeoff between HE and AP?
It wouldn't blow up wings on one hit from above just like that with two hits so often.
how do you explain HE hits then? it would make one big hole on the wing surface (probably through) and I don't think that plane would like some big holes there even if wingtip isnt cut away.

so.. how does Hispano get benefit of HE and AP round while MG151/20 seems to be HE, if even that?
Probably just because of the way damage is modelled.
It doesn't seem to me that theres such thing as 'penetration' effect.. seems just simple as if hits one spot, damage is there, not anywhere else even if bullet would had cut through the plane.
That would of course give some benefit for Hispano.

dont go say that AH does model penetration, since I've shot with BB guns right into spits nose so that its rear fuselage has blown off..
That would had required BB rounds go through engine block AND the fuel tank. (fuel tank in spitfires is nicely placed in front of the pilot)


so, quit claiming that I am comparing MG151/20 and Hispano to anywhere equal.
besides, same lack is with ShVAK's.. they're on the same line with MG151/20
so im not only thinking MG151/20

Its pure bull... that spitfire can knock couple of tanks with its cannons while ground attack Fw190 cant do that at all. (only handsomehunk would load it up with HE when supposed to strafe armored targets)

wooo Got a nerve sorry.

Fishu have you ever shot a real gun? Have you ever witnessed the effects of a High power rifle cartridge on different types of medium?

the "penetration" effect you speak of is not as you invision. First, there are many factors that have affect on the terminal ballistics of a projectile. Terminal being once the projectile strikes its target. Angle, medium type, velocity, and many other things can cause bullets to do strange sometimes but mostly predictable things. I suspect you invision AP ammo making a clean cylindrical hole through an ac damaging only that which is within its .78 inch diameter through the medium. Well that is just wrong. A very high velocity round is very destructive as it passes through. It wrecks havoc along its ever increasing path through whatever it hits. picture a rear quarter attack and bullets are striking a wing at the  trailing edge of the ailerons or flaps. Do you think these bullets will just make a small .78 inch hole through the wing and exit the leading edge? They will tear the sskin off the wing and make very large exit holes and if the hti the spar square on, most likely it will be structurally dammged.

I also gather that you believe that these rounds just dont have what it takes to penetrate tank armor? Based on what? I have fired my puny 30-06 through 1/4" pot steel with ease. This is a 165 grain bullet at 2800 FPS, how much more would a 2000 grain projectile at the same velocity penetrate?

This "explosive" efffect of AP hispano ammo you seem to think..I will be honest when i say i dont get where you get that. Has it been stated by HTC staff that hispano ammo is both HE and AP? I can assure you that hispano ammo does not need to be explosive to be destructive to armor AND thin AC skins. Its Kinetice energy and impact speed is plenty. Look, I know you are a dedicated LW guy. I am just a guy that enjoys Flight sims and flying with my buds. I am also a 50 cal type of guy. I just get tired of hearing the dribble. Some of this stuff that is being said as facts..are just opinions, biased one I am a Munitions Technician with the USAF for 13 years, I rarely get involved with htese fruitless discussions, but had a hair up my ... to say this.

Nothing personal to you or anyone, just the facts sir...

ammo

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by -ammo-:
wooo Got a nerve   sorry.

Fishu have you ever shot a real gun? Have you ever witnessed the effects of a High power rifle cartridge on different types of medium?

the "penetration" effect you speak of is not as you invision. First, there are many factors that have affect on the terminal ballistics of a projectile. Terminal being once the projectile strikes its target. Angle, medium type, velocity, and many other things can cause bullets to do strange sometimes but mostly predictable things. I suspect you invision AP ammo making a clean cylindrical hole through an ac damaging only that which is within its .78 inch diameter through the medium. Well that is just wrong. A very high velocity round is very destructive as it passes through. It wrecks havoc along its ever increasing path through whatever it hits. picture a rear quarter attack and bullets are striking a wing at the  trailing edge of the ailerons or flaps. Do you think these bullets will just make a small .78 inch hole through the wing and exit the leading edge? They will tear the sskin off the wing and make very large exit holes and if the hti the spar square on, most likely it will be structurally dammged.

I also gather that you believe that these rounds just dont have what it takes to penetrate tank armor? Based on what? I have fired my puny 30-06 through 1/4" pot steel with ease. This is a 165 grain bullet at 2800 FPS, how much more would a 2000 grain projectile at the same velocity penetrate?

This "explosive" efffect of AP hispano ammo you seem to think..I will be honest when i say i dont get where you get that. Has it been stated by HTC staff that hispano ammo is both HE and AP? I can assure you that hispano ammo does not need to be explosive to be destructive to armor AND thin AC skins. Its Kinetice energy and impact speed is plenty. Look, I know you are a dedicated LW guy. I am just a guy that enjoys Flight sims and flying with my buds. I am also a 50 cal type of guy. I just get tired of hearing the dribble. Some of this stuff that is being said as facts..are just opinions, biased one   I am a Munitions Technician with the USAF for 13 years, I rarely get involved with htese fruitless discussions, but had a hair up my ... to say this.

Nothing personal to you or anyone, just the facts sir...

ammo

Dedicated LW guy? no im not.
Dedicated LW guys dont fly P47s or P51B's
I just don't mind to get killed by one or two hits of HS or get killed by chogs in pass or two in my panzer, while I can just laugh at pathetic tries of non HS equipped planes. not fun at all.
I Have heard alot about HS, more than I've heard of MG151/20, but they never mention it being better tank killer than rockets.

I do know pretty good what sort of damage AP bullet does, but its not like HE ammo.
Why don't you talk about all that what HE round does? it isn't just a piece of crap against aluminium skin.
You forgot to mention heat effects totally with your AP story.. it creates alot heat as well when AP round smashes through the structure. (already .50cal does that pretty well)

Are you just trying to be in worth with your biased mind?
yes, maybe you're the biased one here since you can't even accept possibility of HS being too superb or other cannons too weak?

Hispano is ridicilously super killer compared to ANY other cannon of same caliber.. this isn't anymore explained by its superior trajectory or any other such crap.
I don't change my mind about this until I see definitive test results.

Already dedicated anti-tank 20mm guns with higher velocity were weak enough against PZ-IVh and from far closer ranges than what planes in AH shoots PZ-IVhs with super HS's.

[This message has been edited by Fishu (edited 03-12-2001).]

[Jigster]

Score another one for the UBB, it just ate another post I took about an hour and a half on so excuse my attitude.


In brief:

LW guys have a legitimate concern. The Hispano is exceding it's historical penetration values.

However the LW people have gone off base about adding AP ammo to their planes (again). You've already got it. And the mine shell. Thats as deadly as it's going to get. It still doesn't come close to the combined Hispano round and theirs not much you can do about it. The MG 151/20 does not have the penetrating power for tank killing.

Yes HTC uses the best capabilites of each round. This is "mixed ammunition belt" simulating.

Comparing any kind of face hardened armor to any other medium is a severly misleading concept.

As far as armor goes, most WWII 20mm aircraft guns don't have the combined mass/diameter/speed to effectively defeat the armor (yes yes there are AP/HE but they are a serious trade off). Since they are only chunks of steel with no secondary damage provisions, once the armor kills the round's kinetic energy, it's useless. And it doesn't take much armor to do so for rounds small masses. This is why APC/APCBC, the most common types of AP tank ammo during WWII, exploded after impact. Subcores had to be super dense and fired at hyper velocity to be more effective then the APC round after penetration.

Armor was designed to protect what lay underneath it. If it fails, but kills the KE of a steel AP round it has still served it's purpose.

grumble, mutter, grumble.

[Tony Williams]

A few comments.  There was plain AP ammo for the Hispano (it was a US standard item), but it seems that the RAF didn't use it.  Standard RAF loadout from mid-war onwards was an equal mix of HEI and SAPI.  The SAPI consisted of an incendiary shell with an armour-piercing cap, so its penetration was only around 18mm, which was considered good enough to deal with any aircraft armour or ground targets except tanks.

The MG 151 AP was about 115g at 700 m/s, instead of 130g at 880 m/s for the Hispano.  It was capable of penetrating up to 20mm at short range.

The British did develop an experimental "Hartkern" round for the Hispano (tungsten carbide core) which was calculated to penetrate up to 65mm, IIRC, but it had stability problems and never made it into production.

The smallest gun capable of making much impression on a medium tank was the 23mm VYa.  If anyone'sinterested, I can try to dig out my examples of these ammo and post a comparative picture.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~autogun/index.htm

[DB603]

S!


 It is evident that the Hispano is better in ballistics etc. but the MG151/20 was not that bad as it is here.-ammo- told he has been in the USAF with munitions,well I am in the FAF dealing with such stuff too,so it's no lack of docs et. here...And FAF used the MG151/20 after the war as a self defense gun,since it could do SEVERE damage on the target it hitted and was effective at longer ranges seen here.REAL LIFE facts,not just a simulation.It's just so darn frustrating to get killed in AH by a Hispano wonder just pointing the barrels at Ya and firing some rounds and U can make the tank/bomber crew laugh with the MG151/20...To put aside the comparison between cannons,I would like to see the damage model tweaked over for the GV's,especially Ostwind.



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DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

[Seeker]

I know for a fact that Jug drivers in the Italian theatre were trained to fire at close range at the road surface in front of armour, the theory being that the rounds would ricochet up into the thin belly of the vehicle. Admittedly I'd imagine that the rounds would bury them selves into the road top, but then who am I to doubt a Silver Star decorated pilot?

My point being that if a Jug was used as an armour killer (and it was); it seems entirely reasonable that an Fw would function in that regard too.

[-ammo-]

Fishu- I will digress at this point here. this debate it seems will no longer be productive  (was it ever? ). However for the record..again.. I am not a big faithfull follower of the hispano equiped AC, just the truth.

also if you look back thru my 2 posts fellas-- I did not mention other specific effects of the projectile in terminal state..but I did say many. Please dont try to tear holes in my posts with untruths. Also I did say that Both rounds are VERY destructive and the only purpose this debate serves anymore is for the sake of argument-- since BOTH ROUNDS DID WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO!

<S> fishu, all