Let's make bombing a skill again :)

[juzz]

Aiming bombs in AH requires as much skill as it takes for me to hit the Submit Reply button at the bottom of this text box...

[-lazs-]

OK, I will admit it... I don't care if I never see another bomber in the game so long as they have so much effect on the fighters with their one plane suicide "spoiler" sorties.

Bombers in WWII had little if any effect on fighters.   More bomb dispertion, huge cities, and or tougher (way tougher) fields would increase the realism and stop some of the animosity.    Face it... Most pilots don't "notice" the bombers untill they have ruined the fighter war and.... When that happens, there is animosity not admiration.

Give them huge cities to bomb and when the city is ded... The war is over.   leave the airfields to the fighters.  

Bombers didn't close airfields (for long) or affect fuel or kill radar.   They couldn't even hit something as big as a battleship or and aircraft carrier!  

The bombers in AH do not seem to be interested in "winning the war"   They seem onluy interested in getting attention by closing the close fields in suicidal runs so that everyone gets pissed off.   Why don't they close and kill back fields?   Why do they allways insist on making the fight harder to get into?

How many fun fites between two close fields are ruined by some jerk in a bomber closing one of the fields?   If I could, I would shoot down my own countries bomber in that situation.
lazs

[sling322]

I believe its called suppression of the enemy lazs.  I thought one of the objects of this sim was to capture bases and territory.  If the hangars were never bombed then a base could never be captured and you would have one of two things....an endless furball along the front between two countries or an endless vulchfest by whichever side had superior numbers over the base in question.  Then the channel one buffer would be full of accusations and whining about whatever team was shooting who on the runway....doesnt sound like too much fun to me.

[lazs]

sling... I can't make any sense of what you are saying.    Are you saying that only bombers should be able to capture "territory" or that "suppressing the enemy" is the job of bombers?   When fighters supress the enemy then that is "vultching"?

Is the game more realistic or fun if bombers kill or cripple all the fields that are close enough to the action to be useful?  

Let's face facts here... People want to fight their fighters against other fighters.   Also.. No one cares about bombers.... They neither support or defend against them in any meanigfull way.   Most are simply pissed when  the bombers screw up the fight.  

Also... Define "furball".   Does that mean any time fighters engage in more than a couple of planes?   I think most would agree that "furballs" are the most fun and the real point of even logging on!   Honestly.... How many log on with the intent of some sort of "winning the game"?  LOL.

Like I said.... turn off killshooter for bombers and you will see how much people like having em in the game.
lazs

[flakbait]

Killshooter off for bombers? Cool, I can get the kill if a friendly ackstar starts up!


------------------------
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
Whattaya mean I can't kill em? Why the hell not?!
 

[Fury]

I can tell you that I log on to try strategy.  I purposely try to stay away from furballs because that's not the kind of fun I'm looking for -- 2 years of Fighter Ace was enough of that for me.

The great part about games like AH is that you can have the furballers and the strategy guys all in one arena.

Fury

[sling322]

Its real simple to understand lazs, but I guess it does no good to explain it when you already state your opinion that "nobody cares about bombers anyway."  I think you would be surprised at how many people have a differing view.  

[LJK Raubvogel]

I must be a nobody, because I care about bombers. Personally, it doesn't bother me if someone doesn't care for my tactics or not. If I'm trying to take a field with my teammates, and we are being stopped by wave upon wave of Nikis and Spits, I will sure as hell grab a buff and turn that FH into smoking rubble.

You like furballs, fine. Everyone has their own reasons and motivations for playing. But please don't tell me how to play the game until you start paying my sub.

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LJK_Raubvogel
LuftJägerKorps

[Graywolf]

 

Originally posted by lazs:
Is the game more realistic or fun if bombers kill or cripple all the fields that are close enough to the action to be useful? [/B/]

Yup, if we're trying to take a field I'll be at the front of the queue buying beer for the guys that have the sense and the ability to go out and close the neighboring bases, both ground vehicle and aircraft. Makes the job SO much easier.

 

Originally posted by lazs:

Let's face facts here... People want to fight their fighters against other fighters.   Also.. No one cares about bombers.... They neither support or defend against them in any meanigfull way.   Most are simply pissed when  the bombers screw up the fight.  

Yes, lets face facts here, this is /your/ opinion is is /not/ the opinion of everyone. I'd like to fly bomber a lot more than I do right now (but the bombers have issues IMO) and instead mostly fly fighter/bomber type sorties.

I only really fly fighters when I have to defend a base or it looks like the current 'push' at the enemy need that more than blowing things up.

 

Originally posted by lazs:

Also... Define "furball".   Does that mean any time fighters engage in more than a couple of planes?   I think most would agree that "furballs" are the most fun and the real point of even logging on!   Honestly.... How many log on with the intent of some sort of "winning the game"?  LOL.

Furballs are tedious boring and pointless. workking as part of a team towards a common goal is /much/ more fun. OK the comman goal is only a reset and sometimes gets a bit like some sort of 'capture the flag' game but right now that's what we have, this a 'work in progress' game and always will be.

For now you're far more likely to see me flying past the furballs in a loaded Typhoon to go and bomb the crap out the hangers than joining in =)
 


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Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>

[-lazs-]

Well... i don[t believe it's "either or".   Having fun in the game is not simply a choice between "mindless furballs" or suicide bombing.

first of all, I have yet to see a reset or win or whatever you call it.    I couldn't care less actually.   Also... Eveyone logs on for 'strategy' it's just that laser guided bomb drops by suicide bombers are not part of it for most people.   Strategy is not  simply making the game less fun for others.   Fighter vs fighter involves strat.

To get back to the original topic...  Bomb drops are silly in AH.  Closing a field with one suicide bomber is silly and unrealistic.  Bombers have waaay to much affect on airfields.   The fact that they do makes em unrealistic in the game.   The fact that they are unrealistic makes em nothing but a pain in the butt.   Their only mission seems to destroy the fun of other players.  

To me, bombers in AH are extactly like the 12 year olds that shoot down their own teammates in a sim that doesn't have killshoooter....  They are doing it to get attention by pissing people off.   As such... I think we ought to not have killshooter enabled for buffs.

One of my squaddies grabbed a B26 and threatened to bomb the enemy fighter hanger... I told him that if he did I would  go to his town, hunt him down in the streets and beat him like the gore supporter he was.

Give the bombers something realistic to bomb with realistic results and leave the airfields alone.
lazs

[-lazs-]

Heck... look at it this way... The only feasable defense against the unrealistic lone bomber and his unrealistic ability to close or cripple a field is.... for every field to be capped by fighters at high alt.   If that happens then there will be no fites.   We simply don't have enough players to have a realistic cap over every field.   Not to mention, this would be boring in the extreme and.... It is a solution to problem that should not exist.

Make large cities that take many concerted bomber raids to destroy.   When the city is destroyed... end of game.  Players can participate or not.

[popeye]

Yeah, having one player ruin another player's fun is right out.  I vote we set all the bombs and bullets to zero lethality.  We can still get points for hitting a guy, but it won't shoot him down and ruin his fun.  When someone gets enough points, he becomes UberGeneral and gets a mountain named after him, then everyone's points are set to zero and we start over.


 

[popeye]

Seriously, if we're gonna have bombers, they have to be able to affect other players, not just run up points.  That's what online sims are about.  The problem is balancing the amount of damage a player can inflict with the risk, skill, and time necessary to do it.

As it is now, a single player can shut down a field for 15 minutes.  To do that, it takes a minimum of skill, and maybe 15-60 minutes of his time depending on the risk assumed.  Maybe that's not a good balance.

Possible solutions:

Make it harder to hit small targets from very high altitude.  Make it harder to see them, or add some dispersion to the bomb trajectory.  This will increase both the skill and risk required of the bomber pilot.

Get rid of the "you are here" map.  Add navigation features to the terrain, and make it harder to find the fields, especially from high altitude.  This increases the skill required from the bomber pilot.

Add player-controlled 88mm ack at the fields.

Add engine management to buffs.  This would add to the skill required for buff driving, and give buff pilots something to do on that long climb to 35k.  (We know they're all anal gadget types anyway.)    



[This message has been edited by popeye (edited 11-15-2000).]

[SKurj]

Hmm I rarely takeoff from any field without a Jabo loadout of some sort.  My first targets are usually Ack, VH, Then oops FH!! I must be a spoiler, and noone cares about me +(

If I must engage to help a friendly out(non plane specific, be he a buff or fighter) I will.  If my loadout is rockets I will keep them through the first and maybe the second pass on the bogey.  If he is persitent in attacking the friend or engaging me I then dump ord.  Otherwise I make my way to spoil your day +)

HTC givem a Fighters Only arena!!

SKurj

[-lazs-]

well pop... that is pretty much what I am saying.   I obviously have no interest in bombers tho so I am very biased on how much of a role they should have in "affecting the fighter war"..... How much they affect the score or the "winning" of the war has no interest to me.

skurj... jabo is a totally different matter to me.   Most can see the difference.  If nothing else, it is not a high alt norden situation.   it requires getting into the fight but.... Even for jabo... the fields are still waaaaay too easy to damage.

More bomb dispertion and tougher fields are needed.   How much is arguable.   I also would like killshooter turned off for/against buffs tho just to see how that would go.
lazs