What plane do want to learn how to fight with?

[PJ_Godzilla]

I'd like to learn how to actually handle the Dora...instead of the lossless BnZ tactic.

I'm working on this. I cannot claim anything like mastery but there is one thing I've learned from attempting to furball the Dora: All turns must be made with a quick nose-up/down to vertical and roll. Doing this requires smash - a slow Dora is an unmaneuverable, therefore DEAD Dora.

Provided you have the KE, though, there are a number of things you can do well with the Dora, given it's high roll rate and good pitch response (anybody got any data on time to pitch vertical for different AC at different speeds?). For example, the Dora can barrel roll or half pipe very well, provided you master the concert of action required to enable a zero-alt loss roll (i.e., elevator transition throughout the roll). It can also perform the high yo-yo with alacrity - and this is critical given that most of your prey will enter a defensive flat turn when they see you diving. The plane climbs well and can be used on the rope or fake rope (see Agent 360's topic on this matter - the fake rope constitutes a feigned stall transitioned to a flat turn at the top) easily.
It's got long belts - and that's good on a B and Z or any lead shot where you can't see the target for the long nose. The dive is pretty good - the plane doesn't start shaking until 500-ish and is easily recoverable - unlike the 109.

In any case, what I'm working on with the 190 right now is some training work to see just how quickly I can go nose-up/roll 90 (or 180, 270, etc...)/nose horizontal. I'm trying to see if I can use such a simple maneuver to proxy a flat turn of any magnitude.

[LLogann]

Wait... What is the question?

Until I get my license, I'll stick to a 172.

[ACE]

I wanna learn to dogfight in a TA-152..... fun plane 

[boomerlu]

I'm working on this. I cannot claim anything like mastery but there is one thing I've learned from attempting to furball the Dora: All turns must be made with a quick nose-up/down to vertical and roll. Doing this requires smash - a slow Dora is an unmaneuverable, therefore DEAD Dora.

I agree with the smash requirement.

Here are some ideas I've been playing around with:

*The 180 degree phase roll*
Complicated name for a simple idea. Say a con is on your tail and homing in for the kill. Roll and start a turn. It can be in ANY direction, the point is to get your opponent rolling with you. Once they align their wings with yours, roll 180 degrees the opposite direction so that your lift vectors are pointing directly away from each other. Once you've matched your wings to the opposite of theirs, keep rolling to maintain that matched opposite. Combine this with some elevator/throttle work and you've got yourself a recipe for an overshoot.

*The 180 degree Vertical Overshoot*
Requires about 2-3000 feet of altitude, enough that you can credibly Split-S.
Based off the previous idea, but with a very specific application. In this case, you want your chaser to align his wings with yours while you are inverted, i.e. lift vector pointed down into the ground. Then as he's trying to follow you and pull lead his shot, you quickly roll 180 degrees opposite and zoom. He will most likely overshoot. From here you can try to reverse your climb to pull in for a shot or squeeze it for all it's worth and extend away. If you continue the pattern you'll be in a tight rolling scissors (very little horizontal component).

*Wings Level No Planform*
Strict guns evasion technique - when the other guy is coming in screaming for a kill, you do the standard break turn, and just as he enters guns range you roll to point your wingtip at him giving him no planform.

*90 Degree Guns Evasion*
Same basic principle as 180 degree phase roll, only this time you roll your wings perpendicular to him to avoid the shot.

Hmm, maybe we should start a 190 techniques thread.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Yes, that'd be a worthy thread.

One idea on which I've been working but cannot execute yet in the Dora is the Hammerhead or Wingover. Lately, I've been practicing the former maneuver in the 109 G-2. Typically, starting from about 250 IAS, you can pull vertical until speed drops to around 100 IAS, kill power, then go hard rudder with full power. That pulls a quick and stunning reversal +/- about 30 degrees. Trying to do this in the higher torque 109s and the Dora, however, is one hell of a lot more difficult.

Likewise with the wingover.

One thing I've noticed with the Dora is that, typically, any attemp at a wingover style maneuver results in a redout, if I compensate to avoid snap rolling. The two are kind of opposite. Striking the right opposite roll balance seems nigh on impossible.

I probably just need to work on it more in the training arena.

Consider the possibilities, though, for both offensive use via a rope or fake rope maneuver (both of which can benfit from a flat rudder turn, or for defensive use via a combined break turn low to wingover to vertical downward maneuver (see "The Last Gunfighter" episode of DogFights for this one - it's a pretty clean way to disappear from your attacker's view quickly).

[boomerlu]

One idea on which I've been working but cannot execute yet in the Dora is the Hammerhead or Wingover. Lately, I've been practicing the former maneuver in the 109 G-2. Typically, starting from about 250 IAS, you can pull vertical until speed drops to around 100 IAS, kill power, then go hard rudder with full power. That pulls a quick and stunning reversal +/- about 30 degrees. Trying to do this in the higher torque 109s and the Dora, however, is one hell of a lot more difficult.

Try the maneuvers suggested in "109 Torque Initiated Rolls" in the Training Forum. The nose down bunt is extremely fast and effective.

One thing I've noticed with the Dora is that, typically, any attemp at a wingover style maneuver results in a redout, if I compensate to avoid snap rolling. The two are kind of opposite. Striking the right opposite roll balance seems nigh on impossible.

I'm not sure I follow. Perhaps you should define wingover? With the D9, I find most kinds of extreme handling at low speed will result in snap rolls. Again, I use a power-off to power-on nose bunt for vertical reversals. At the top of a zoom with nearly no speed, gravity drops your nose faster than control surfaces possibly could.

[PJ_Godzilla]

Try the maneuvers suggested in "109 Torque Initiated Rolls" in the Training Forum. The nose down bunt is extremely fast and effective.
I'm not sure I follow. Perhaps you should define wingover? With the D9, I find most kinds of extreme handling at low speed will result in snap rolls. Again, I use a power-off to power-on nose bunt for vertical reversals. At the top of a zoom with nearly no speed, gravity drops your nose faster than control surfaces possibly could.

Yes, I realized the redout ref is ambiguous. A Wingover is well-defined here: http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/ACM-wingover.html

It's basically a low speed 180 degree yaw in the vertical plane. What I find with the Dora is that it's hard to keep the wings in a vertical plane at low speed. Typically, at the top of the climb portion, if I apply no/too little torque-countering roll, the fdub will snap roll. Conversely, if I apply to much, it will nose down hard, causing a redout. It's almost like a negative snap roll where the leading edge of the wing "digs in" to the airstream - worst, of course, at the high tip, which is moving fastest.

The 109 torque roll, as described by Agent 360, are what I've been using - the bunt you cite. I note, though, that 360 says it gets much more difficult once you go to the G-14 or K-4. THe same seems to be true of the 190d9. The higher torque makes what is an easy maneuver in the G-2, a tricky one.

I probably just need more time to practice.

BTW, I'll repeat my offer to you: if you need a corporate friend to sponsor you for a Friends and Family discount on any new Ford/L-M/Ford Truck/Volvo product, let me know. I think the AHII clientele is a good one and will willingly sponsor any of my correspondents here. It often comes in handy for a prospective customer to have a corporate friend to call/straighten out the dealer or service manager. Calls from Dearborn tend to make them fly right, if you follow (not to say MOST of them don't).

[boomerlu]

Yes, I realized the redout ref is ambiguous. A Wingover is well-defined here: http://www.furball.warbirdsiii.com/krod/ACM-wingover.html

Ok, Lima Charlie. I went offline and tried it in the Dora - I typically snap stall or mush. What makes a hammerhead different?

The 109 torque roll, as described by Agent 360, are what I've been using - the bunt you cite. I note, though, that 360 says it gets much more difficult once you go to the G-14 or K-4. THe same seems to be true of the 190d9. The higher torque makes what is an easy maneuver in the G-2, a tricky one.

I don't have as much experience trying to actually control my direction down with the engine torque. However, this should be unnecessary in the Dora. Here's my process if say I am trying to rope somebody and need to use the vertical stall turn/bunt.

1) Go vertical (of course).
2) Roll to put my lift vector on them (this is what makes controlling roll direction less necessary).
3) Pull over the top slightly - this way the gravity bunt pulls the nose in the right direction.
4) Stall power off. Thus no actual rolling from the torque. Gravity pulls my nose downwards at this point. Controls are fairly dead, it doesn't matter if I'm pulling back or not.
5) When my nose reaches around horizon level, I power on. This rapidly kicks the nose down. No redout - there's not enough airspeed to create that many negative Gs.
6) Flaps to taste - depends where you need the nose in relation to the horizon.

A little context: I'm using a twisty stick. I abhor fancy rudder work because it's too closely coupled to the rest of my controls (i.e. physically via the stick motion). One can probably the torque roll far better than the process above, but the process does work and does away with some of the risk of snap rolling.

If I'm using this maneuver as an evasive measure, I skip 2 and 3. In that case I do the nose forward bunt in order to drop out of view.

BTW, I'll repeat my offer to you: if you need a corporate friend to sponsor you for a Friends and Family discount on any new Ford/L-M/Ford Truck/Volvo product, let me know. I think the AHII clientele is a good one and will willingly sponsor any of my correspondents here. It often comes in handy for a prospective customer to have a corporate friend to call/straighten out the dealer or service manager. Calls from Dearborn tend to make them fly right, if you follow (not to say MOST of them don't).

Thank you sir . I'm not in the market for a car right now (need a job first) but I'll certainly keep that in mind. If you ever need a physicist, let me know.

[CVA]

I would love to learn to fight in the F-4U all models, however I think this plane is under-powered in this game. Maybe Iam wrong. I would love to learn to use properly.   

[PJ_Godzilla]

Ok, Lima Charlie. I went offline and tried it in the Dora - I typically snap stall or mush. What makes a hammerhead different?
I don't have as much experience trying to actually control my direction down with the engine torque. However, this should be unnecessary in the Dora. Here's my process if say I am trying to rope somebody and need to use the vertical stall turn/bunt.

1) Go vertical (of course).
2) Roll to put my lift vector on them (this is what makes controlling roll direction less necessary).
3) Pull over the top slightly - this way the gravity bunt pulls the nose in the right direction.
4) Stall power off. Thus no actual rolling from the torque. Gravity pulls my nose downwards at this point. Controls are fairly dead, it doesn't matter if I'm pulling back or not.
5) When my nose reaches around horizon level, I power on. This rapidly kicks the nose down. No redout - there's not enough airspeed to create that many negative Gs.
6) Flaps to taste - depends where you need the nose in relation to the horizon.

A little context: I'm using a twisty stick. I abhor fancy rudder work because it's too closely coupled to the rest of my controls (i.e. physically via the stick motion). One can probably the torque roll far better than the process above, but the process does work and does away with some of the risk of snap rolling.

If I'm using this maneuver as an evasive measure, I skip 2 and 3. In that case I do the nose forward bunt in order to drop out of view.
Thank you sir . I'm not in the market for a car right now (need a job first) but I'll certainly keep that in mind. If you ever need a physicist, let me know.

Thanks. I'll try this - though not as an evasive since it seems like, given your attacker has enough smash, you'd die at step 4 - unless you've correctly judged his e-state and are setting up the rope, in which case, steps 2&3  still seem to apply.

 In the 109G-2 I was doing:

1. pull vertical from about 250IAS or better.
2. Stay vertical until about 120IAS
3. Kill Power 'til about 100 IAS, just before stall
4. Go full left rudder, full power

From a heading of due north, this would result in a heading of due south +/- 30d QUICKLY, albeit in a difficult-to-control fashion.


Physicist? My condolences. I had to go as high as Modern Physics to get through masters-level Aero Eng. - which I worked in for a number of years before crossing to the dark side with an MBA. Applied physics, imj, is a worthwhile field. Pure physics, it seems, is a harder one in which to work since it's always tied to grants. In any case, keep trying, you will one day find yourself ass-deep in work and insufficient time and it'll even pay. Then, email me and I'll be your corporate guardian angel, protecting you from unsavory dealers and service managers.

And thanks for your info - I'm sure it'll prove pretty useful. I'm looking forward to getting a little TA/MA time tonight.

See how dull life gets when you get your career established? During meetings I'll often scan this bbs from my laptop and dream about being a cartoon fighter pilot.  

[boomerlu]

Thanks. I'll try this - though not as an evasive since it seems like, given your attacker has enough smash, you'd die at step 4 - unless you've correctly judged his e-state and are setting up the rope, in which case, steps 2&3  still seem to apply.

Right, with a "proper" rope, there's no problems. If I'm using this as an "evasive" it will probably be as a last ditch effort after realizing I didn't set up my rope properly. Or (as it so happened last night) when I've just finished killing one con in the vertical and JUST spot a second one 400 off my tail. The thing is, this maneuver puts the nose around so quickly that it can be unexpected. As Agent said, it can look like you just "dropped out of view". It's certainly not the standard pull over the top while you stall.

In the 109G-2 I was doing:

1. pull vertical from about 250IAS or better.
2. Stay vertical until about 120IAS
3. Kill Power 'til about 100 IAS, just before stall
4. Go full left rudder, full power

From a heading of due north, this would result in a heading of due south +/- 30d QUICKLY, albeit in a difficult-to-control fashion.

If you have the time and are using the vertical as an offensive maneuver, I'd just do my 2 and 3 because it's easier to change heading in the vertical (i.e. just roll your plane). From there, it doesn't matter HOW you nose down so long as you nose down more or less straight.

If you don't have time to properly set things up and are defensive, then I see the value in using the torque to spin through so much heading as you do in #4.

Physicist? My condolences. I had to go as high as Modern Physics to get through masters-level Aero Eng. - which I worked in for a number of years before crossing to the dark side with an MBA. Applied physics, imj, is a worthwhile field. Pure physics, it seems, is a harder one in which to work since it's always tied to grants. In any case, keep trying, you will one day find yourself ass-deep in work and insufficient time and it'll even pay. Then, email me and I'll be your corporate guardian angel, protecting you from unsavory dealers and service managers.

. I've realized this so I'm looking for a job in finance. The other route physicists take. Still, never hurts to throw out my educational background (BS btw), you never know where it might lead. If I don't find a job soon, I'll probably go back to school for an MS in Mathematical Finance (once again never hurts to throw it out there).

And thanks for your info - I'm sure it'll prove pretty useful. I'm looking forward to getting a little TA/MA time tonight.

No problem. BTW, this is an odd thing, but you can pretty reliably rope the computer AI in offline practice missions. Might give you some targets in case nobody in the arenas takes the bait.

See how dull life gets when you get your career established? During meetings I'll often scan this bbs from my laptop and dream about being a cartoon fighter pilot.  

Maybe that will be me some day.