Hitlers obsession?

[zack1234]

See Rule #2

[Angus]

The United States involvement in Europe was a small potato really. The USA had to raise a conscript army and ship it to the UK complete with supplies and equipment. Now the way I see it is that as soon as the Germans declared war on the USSR they were doomed, Russia is too large of a landmass to conquer and while blitzkrieg worked on the open plains once they reached urban Russia around the Volga and Moscow they were halted.

This lack of momentum followed by a crippling Russian winter combined with a HUGE planning deficiency led to the complete destruction of the German ground forces. Now had this not materialized OR had Hitler been prepared, an invasion of Europe would have certainly failed. Without Russia and the UK the USA could not have fought the German military period.

So I think of it this way. Without England and Russia, Without Hitlers Stupidity = WW2 Lost

The outcome of the Russian campaign did not get clear before 1943. Hitler was very close to beating the USSR, and might have succeeded had he listened to Guderian. But he was not a listener.

[Rich46yo]

I wouldnt call a 3 million + men army and a vast air force "small potato". Nor would I call the contribution of brits, Free French, Canadians, Aussies....ect "small potato".

It is true however that it took the Yank machine a some time to gear up and train up to make a meaningful contribution in the land offensive. But within a year we were landing troops in North Africa. Dont forget the logistics of getting huge armies of men and materials across oceans is a little different then across land. Especially if 100 U-boats are in your path.

It could be argued that if the Germans had not split up their army north and south, started earlier and simply made Moscow their objective they would have won. We'll never know however. In Africa and the Mideast Hitler also showed his lack of strategic vision.

Got to go to work.

The United States involvement in Europe was a small potato really. The USA had to raise a conscript army and ship it to the UK complete with supplies and equipment. Now the way I see it is that as soon as the Germans declared war on the USSR they were doomed, Russia is too large of a landmass to conquer and while blitzkrieg worked on the open plains once they reached urban Russia around the Volga and Moscow they were halted.

This lack of momentum followed by a crippling Russian winter combined with a HUGE planning deficiency led to the complete destruction of the German ground forces. Now had this not materialized OR had Hitler been prepared, an invasion of Europe would have certainly failed. Without Russia and the UK the USA could not have fought the German military period.

So I think of it this way. Without England and Russia, Without Hitlers Stupidity = WW2 Lost

[Anaxogoras]

See Rule #4

[Skuzzy]

For those who are wondering why thier post got excised.  It is tiresome to continually have to edit posts that should have never been quoted to begin with.  So, from on, you chose to quote an obvious posting infraction of the forum posting rules, your post will get excised for the same rule infraction.

It is irritating anyone would rather quote an obvious infraction, rather than hitting the "Report to moderator" link in the post.  All it does is serve to further derail a thread, and support the person who violated the forum posting rule to begin with.

I'll add that to the forum posting rules today.

Carry on.

[Anaxogoras]

Understood: don't quote rule infractions.

[Skuzzy]

So, I type slower than I think.  Corrected.

[Charge]

"Now the way I see it is that as soon as the Germans declared war on the USSR they were doomed, Russia is too large of a landmass to conquer and while blitzkrieg worked on the open plains once they reached urban Russia around the Volga and Moscow they were halted."

As with England and London I think that they thought that it was necessary only to get to Moscow and the whole Soviet Union would be in their grasp. Of course you can speculate if a country can be lead from elsewhere without its historical capital, but for a common man many practical everyday matters dictate where your true leader sits.

"Hitler was very close to beating the USSR, and might have succeeded had he listened to Guderian."

Guderian? Maybe in the starting phases but he should have listened to Manstein above all others, at least to save Germany from complete defeat. But of course that was not an option to Hitler -as was evident he was determined to pull the whole nation into destruction with him. Even in the retreat phases Manstein tried to get permissions to retreat their troops from places that were hopeless to defend and while Hitler denied the permission many times those situations ended in Russians able to mass huge attacking forces that depleted the defenders to a point they had to retreat anyway causing massive drain in manforce and equipment. In fact the encirclement and destruction of sixth army was no the only case where such danger was imminent but the after Stalingrad the generals somewhat knew how to deal with Hitler knowing his insistence to hold ground.

I'm not at all sure how Germany would have fared without Hitler's constant involvement in critical strategic decisions, but I'm quite confident that they would have fared much better. Hitler considered every inch of ground they lost as a political defeat and of course that's what is was for him.

The fall of France, much by Hitlers cunning decisions, helped Hitler to establish a wrong confidence in his military skills. While a few times he was right, in many critical places he was so wrong that it hastened the destruction of Wehrmachts ability even to defend their country quite a bit. In the turning point of war the generals saw that with enough defensive forces they could at least force the Russians to negotiate for peace, but of course, again,  that was not an option for herr Hitler considering what other activities he had ongoing in occupied countries...

-C+

[Angus]

Guderians point was all about skipping the southern Swing and beginning with Moscow. He put his money on that if Moscow was conquered, the USSR would probably be routed, and secondly, he realized the very important seasonal difference between the south and the north, - winter is much shorter in the south and starts a month later.
While the "swing" was indeed effective, it deprived the Germans of a victory and foothold in Moscow, so instead they had to face retreat in completely horrible cirkumstances. That's where Mannstein's words were sound, although oddly enough Hitler's crazy stiffness about holding the line may have meant that retreat was much slower. (This is a whole seperate thing to ponder on).
Despite all thiss mess, the outcome was not getting clear before more than a year had passed. And there, Hitler should perhaps have listened to Von Paulus.....

[RufusLeaking]

On the "the US was a bit player" tangent, let's do a reality check.

In 1941, the US had 30% of the world's industrial output.  This is on the heels of the Great Depression.  By the end of the war, it was more like 50%.

The US was fighting on two fronts.  We had the Japanese all to ourselves, with a couple of bit players.

The US built more than half of the ships and planes of the total built by all combatants in WW2.

(I am recalling these facts by memory from Jim Dunnegin's "Dirty Little Secrets of World War 2.")

To be fair, Russia took the brunt of the attrition in the European Theater.  The British held out through Pearl Harbor very well.  The Commonwealth contributed some of the finest Allied units.

But, to dismiss the US efforts in WW2 is wrong.

[FTJR]

Ruff,
Noone in their right mind would dismiss the USofA in regards to their role in WW2, essentially it was the manufacturing powerhouse or the western world.

Basically the rest of the players against Germany and Japan were caught flat footed with much of their industrial power either damaged or not up to the requirements of the day, and could do no more than hold the line till the US could get up to steam. I believe the trucks sent but the US to the USSR was a very major contributor to the eventual Russian success.


However why Hitler didn't seal the Mediterrainean to win North Africa after the fall of France shows real lack of vision, imho.

Regards

[Timofei]

Without question he was obsessed with the east. He easily wanted to destroy Bolshevism and International Jewry fully as much as he wanted to win the actual war. The Land/living space his new Teutonic super state needed was to the east as well.

And along with being a racist Lunatic he was also a racist pragmatist. The oil and resources the Reich needed were also to the east. Even tho Stalin faithfully delivered all he wanted in trade right up to the opening shots Hitler still wanted Romanian oil and the resource rich Soviet state. Then there was Himmler and his fantasies of all the Aryan soldier/farmer/supermen living like Lords over their vast new farm communities.

So yeah. He wanted the living space, the resources, and he wanted to turn the undesirable races of people "those he deemed to be" into soylent green. And it wasn't just Jews. It was also Gypsies/Roma and Slavic peoples as well as the Intelligentsia and leaders of the Marxist state.

And the entire thing obsessed him. To the point of committing military suicide.

Perfect answer.

[Angus]

Ruff,
Noone in their right mind would dismiss the USofA in regards to their role in WW2, essentially it was the manufacturing powerhouse or the western world.

Basically the rest of the players against Germany and Japan were caught flat footed with much of their industrial power either damaged or not up to the requirements of the day, and could do no more than hold the line till the US could get up to steam. I believe the trucks sent but the US to the USSR was a very major contributor to the eventual Russian success.


However why Hitler didn't seal the Mediterrainean to win North Africa after the fall of France shows real lack of vision, imho.

Regards

How was he supposed to "SEAL" the med? The British had the key, - Gibraltar.
3 ways.
1. Make peace with the UK. He tried in an arrogant way, and actually assumed that the Brits would step down and carry on with their lives (thereby lifting their naval embargo on Germany), but they didn't.
2. Beat the British. He tried, but he failed.
3. Get help with Gibraltar. Germany had no chance conquering Gibraltar from the air or sea, however from land if the Fascist leader of Spain, - Franco, - would allow. Hitler did try that as well, but Franco turned out to be quite difficult to deal with. Hitler could not negotiate.

So, he did not lack the vision. The opening of the med was in the mind of the Nazi planners, but it could not be done. (except for one way, - accept Franco's demands and then tell him to STFU somewhat later on, - something not at all abnormal for Hitler, at least later on)
The pont was good though. With a passage through the med and into the Black Sea, Hitler could have struck straight at the underbelly of the USSR, straight into the resources that fed the north, many months earlier, and then being able to turn the defensive logistics into a complete nightmare of transport. Exactly what the German army had to go through itself in 1941-1942.
BTW, the Battle of Gallipoli in 1917 was all about opening up to the Black sea. The Turks were in the way. In 1941 they were neutral, and if anything, pro-axis.

[FTJR]

I was thinking more of getting a port in Algeria or possibly Morocco from the Vichy to operate from so as to be able to blockade the Straits. That would prevent the resupply of Malta, and put a big increase in the supply lines of the 8th Army.  However I guess I am using 20/20 hindsight.

[Angus]

The Axis had ports all over the N-African coast. Those were largely recaptured during operation Torch.
It was Gibraltar who dominated, they could not enter the med with anything floating on the surface, nor return, and not return with U-boats as well.