Originally posted by Dmitry:
Ok gotta say - this is going nowhere... I see a lot of replies that gives a credit to MiG's and doubts the claims of UN forves. Basicly as any reasonable oposition stands Widewing.
Of course you see a lot of support for the MiGs. Take a look at who are defending the undefendable... Most are citizens of the Ukraine, Russia, Poland, or recently left their native country.
So with all respect Widewing I have to say - you believe in claims that made USAF pilots blindly - seems that you do not have any doubts at all. However well few things were said above that were supposed to shake your position at least a little.
Stop. Think about what you saying. A great many historians have reviewed the USAF claims, time and time again for 48 years. Despite this, there has never been a revision of the victories anywhere near as big as that claimed by the Soviets. Why do you think that is? A cover-up? Not a chance. Any author would give his right testicle to uncover evidence of the Air Force covering up combat losses. If there was some kind of 'Big Lie', it would have been exposed years ago. The Freedom of Information Act has forced the government to open files they thought would remain closed forever. There is no cover-up. So, why should I accept documentation from the Soviet Air Force? What is their track record on cover-ups?
The facts are as follows:
1. Both sides had gun camera films, but only Soviets could add wreckedge to back up the claim. They almost never got a chance to see the pilot hit a ground. Sure victory was when they planed would blow up in air - but thats hardly happened to MiG's. Only eyes witness to narrow it down. 2 people shots same plane - 2 victories. But the MiG never went down - it went rtb!!! How in a world can anyone prove a victory when he never seen plane ditched, crash, wing missing, blew upin air?? - all he seen is hitting a target and maybe some smoke.
Are you familiar with the ejection seat? Generally, unless the pilot is dead, he will likely eject. Normally, pilotless aircraft don't "rtb".
Besides, how many damaged MiGs were claimed as destroyed, and credited that way? Based upon the USAF method of crediting victories, probably not more than a few. I think that you're stretching this beyond the limits of elasticity.
2. Gun camera films dont mean much - if mean anything at all by itself. Especially when it comes to durability of MiG against .50 cal damage.
That simply isn't true. If gun cameras did not serve a very useful purpose they and their added weight would have been discarded
swiftly. The fact remains that while the Browning M2 (.50) was not especially effective when compared to a battery of 20mm guns (which were the armament of the F9F-2 and F9F-5), they obviously were effective to the point that a boat-load MiGs never made it home.
3. Propoganda was issued in US due to release of this supposely to be classified info. In USSR it was highly classified - so there is no propoganda issues.
The story of the MiG-Panther fight was not generally known until well after the war. If it was to be used for propaganda, it would have been released during the war with great fanfare. Naturally, the Soviets would not publicize the event when they suffered a serious blow to their pride by inferior Yankee aircraft. There's no doubt that it would remain classified.
4. Too bad Widewing that you do not consider a number of rescued pilots being any proof. Rescue servise was very good - butr only at sea and friendly territory. When it came to go to enemy trerritory they didnt do that much as at sea - and thats understandable. By knowing the number of pilots downed and rescued you could speculate and guestimate the reall ratio.
There's nothing to consider. It would be pure fantasy to attempt to extrapolate rescues into estimates of Soviets victories.
What method would you employ to do this, excluding a Ouija board?
5. All the numbers - and I dont belive in neither of them - specially the fair tails posted above.
You have the right to believe anything you wish. However, it is my opinion that you are deceiving yourself. Why? Because you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with nearly 50 years of evaluating the data from the war.
More importantly, you need to understand that regardless of what any nation announces it losses to be, the men in the squadrons know the truth. They know who came home and who didn't. In the USSR, that knowledge was useless. There was no free press to expose the truth. Any pilot who openly stated that losses were greater than stated was headed for a mock trial and a long hard existance in a Soviet prison. However, had 600 more F-86 Sabres been shot down than admitted to by the USAF, the story of the cover-up attempt would have been on the front page of every major newspaper in America within weeks. You simply cannot hide such losses in a society like ours. Someone is going to talk. Perhaps this is hard for you to imagine. Here in the USA, the press will dig out the truth, because the American people demand that they do.
6. Dont want to even consider replying in refard Finish war 
Why not? I think it's a valid issue, and so do others as witneesed by their comments.
7. Thats about it I think - we got to know position of each other over this topic. I thank you all for some new info I got from this....
Dmitry, you are a true gentleman. You have conducted yourself with restraint and good humor, despite having strong feelings on the issues. That shows great character. It is always a pleasure to exchange thoughts and beliefs with such a person.
P.S. Widewing please understand - it is my opinion, and my opinion only. As for how much you should value one is up to you to decide. I know damn well my own value for your words. Its just happened that I am 90% disagre this time 
and seems that I am not alone...
I understand completely, and no matter what we may disagree on, it will not take away from excellent impression that you have left with me.
My regards,
Widewing
[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-21-2001).]
