109 flight model

[pervert]

http://www.skipholm.com/willy-messerschmitt.htm

"The engine installation makes the ‘109’ types look very different.  Because of this difference in appearance, the Buchon has always been compared against the Daimler-Benz engined aircraft, notably the G model ‘109’, and the data below give a good comparison of the two aircraft."

Why did YOU ignore that I provided a link where the differences were explained?   

-C+

I posted both these links in another thread a couple of days ago so yes I've read the page, your still ignoring the fact its not the same plane even the stuff thats listed on the page would hardly make for a great comparison the Buchon is a lot faster, lighter, has a different more powerful engine, different prop different front cowling its also longer taller overall.
I have to laugh that you think after reading the differences on the link you posted that you wouldn't mention its a Buchon, its misleading for people to read and then rehash this youtube clip as an example of real world experience of why world war 2 109s out turned everything in the sky.

[Charge]

I posted both these links in another thread a couple of days ago so yes I've read the page, your still ignoring the fact its not the same plane even the stuff thats listed on the page would hardly make for a great comparison the Buchon is a lot faster, lighter, has a different more powerful engine, different prop different front cowling its also longer taller overall.
I have to laugh that you think after reading the differences on the link you posted that you wouldn't mention its a Buchon, its misleading for people to read and then rehash this youtube clip as an example of real world experience of why world war 2 109s out turned everything in the sky.

It certainly has a different front cowling and it is not as streamlined as the original and the thrustline is higher in Buchon. AFAIK the re-engined 109s were not too popular.

The wing profiles are the same with 109 AFAIK and closer to E model as far as wingtips are considered, which may give it a slight edge over the profiles used in G models. I don't know how Skip pushes the envelope flying the Buchon but it is quite clear that if the 109/Bchn can get the fight slow it has a significant edge over the P-51 in maneuvering due to better slow speed handling (due to slats more conventional profile and slats) if compared with P51s, as Skip does claim. In high speed the scales are more equal and I see the P51 holding the edge there especially up high.

While the 109 could not out-turn everything in the sky, which by the way I never claimed, they could perform very well in hands of an expert but not in hands of a novice due to nature of its aerodynamics.

-C+

[thorsim]

the forward visibility is hindered in the later spanish versions as well.

i thought that plane was actually a german one fitted with a RR spanish style for practical reasons surrounding the availability of DB-60(X)s ...

but i could be thinking of another plane ...

[BnZs]

The Buchon is apparently roughly equivalent to a G2 in basic wing-loading. This is not representative of later 109s that had problems as weight was added for additional power and armament.

[pervert]

It certainly has a different front cowling and it is not as streamlined as the original and the thrustline is higher in Buchon. AFAIK the re-engined 109s were not too popular.

The wing profiles are the same with 109 AFAIK and closer to E model as far as wingtips are considered, which may give it a slight edge over the profiles used in G models. I don't know how Skip pushes the envelope flying the Buchon but it is quite clear that if the 109/Bchn can get the fight slow it has a significant edge over the P-51 in maneuvering due to better slow speed handling (due to slats more conventional profile and slats) if compared with P51s, as Skip does claim. In high speed the scales are more equal and I see the P51 holding the edge there especially up high.

While the 109 could not out-turn everything in the sky, which by the way I never claimed, they could perform very well in hands of an expert but not in hands of a novice due to nature of its aerodynamics.

-C+

I don't think vs the p51 it was ever in any doubt regards the 109 outturning it Spit is a different story, I never said you claimed that a 109 outturns everthing in the sky sorry if it looked that way, just that when everytime the argument comes up people who believe that pop up this video to back up their claim. The people commenting on the youtube page agree with it blindly because thats what they want to believe even the title of the video is at best misleading.
From what I've read on the Buchon its based on the 109g airframe minus the tail half the technical drawings needed didn't show up along with the engines so basically its a plane made up from a variety of different sources and parts by people who didn't build bf109s. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info out there on this bird 

People have converted them back to original 109 specifications this plane black 2 was converted back to a g10 from a Buchon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLPE3aCFU4&feature=related

[pervert]

the forward visibility is hindered in the later spanish versions as well.

i thought that plane was actually a german one fitted with a RR spanish style for practical reasons surrounding the availability of DB-60(X)s ...

but i could be thinking of another plane ...

This might be what your talking about I found this in the sources part of the Buchon's wiki page.

Messerschmitt Me-109E-1 with Hispano Suiza 12Z engine, looks quite like a DB 109 even with a diferent engine install with the exceptions of the exhausts and intake the proportions of the nose are the same.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~tozu/me109/foreign/109-spain.htm

[Angus]

How is it hindered? I look at the Buchon, and see the difference mainly under the nose....

[Baumer]

If you compare the two you'll see the engine cowling curves down more in the 109 then the Buchon. The exhaust is much higher (being non-inverted) on the RR and that also obstructs the view.





Also you'll note the inverted engine in the 109 allows for the nose to be narrower at the top, then the Buchon.

[Angus]

Odd, the 109G on the drawing does not quite much match the one on the colour photo. The drawing has a higher curve of the nose.

[thorsim]

that's because the picture is of an E ...

here is a g2 i think ...

Odd, the 109G on the drawing does not quite much match the one on the colour photo. The drawing has a higher curve of the nose.

[Anaxogoras]

that's because the picture is of an E ...

here is a g2 i think ...

(Image removed from quote.)

Hehe, yup.  No 109G in any of the photos Baumer posted.

Thorsim, that looks like a 109F more than a G-2.  Notice the light canopy framing and shallow oil cooler.

This example has heavier canopy framing and a deeper oil cooler:

[MiloMorai]

Notice the red/yellow band for JG301.

At that time IV./JG301 was flying G-14s.

[Baumer]

Both of the 109's are E's, if you look at the elevator you'll see the brace underneath. I used that just as a point of reference, as the engine cowling started to change more in the G series (just trying to give a clear example of why the 109 had better visibility then the Buchon).

[Motherland]

Notice the red/yellow band for JG301.

At that time IV./JG301 was flying G-14s.

I would imagine that's simply a made up paint scheme, as it has a JG 301 Reichsverteidigung band, Eastern/Balkan front wingtip markings, JG 27 unit insignia on the cowling, and air to ground kill markings on the rudder despite the lack of an ETC rack or markings of a Jabostaffel.

It is an F- the tell-tale signs being the glazed section of fuselage below the windscreen, fuel filler point below the cockpit (moved to the spine of the tail behind the cockpit in the G series), strengthening struts where the tail attaches to the tail plane, and shallow oil cooler.

It's definitely NOT a G-14, due to the things previously mentioned, the lack of bulges for MG 131's, neither an Erla Haube canopy or an extended vertical stabilizer/rudder (not tell-tale but unlikely for a G-14), the radio mast and the retractable tail wheel (last aircraft built with this were late production G-2's until it was reintroduced in the K series)

[thorsim]

yea i'm afraid the specific type was lost when i adjusted the graphics for my squad in WB ...

so i was not sure about the specific type ...

Hehe, yup.  No 109G in any of the photos Baumer posted.

Thorsim, that looks like a 109F more than a G-2.  Notice the light canopy framing and shallow oil cooler.

This example has heavier canopy framing and a deeper oil cooler:
(Image removed from quote.)