109 flight model

[Stoney]

I'll give you the auto pilot functions and the trim functions, but to say that engine management and modeling in IL2 is more accurate is entirely incorrect.  If you want to say its more complex, then I'll agree.  We've all discussed the difference in game mechanics multiple times between the two games.  IL2 has good eye candy, a decent single player experience, and more immersion.  The aerodynamics of AH wins hands down.

And, Bolt, no disrespect intended, but most of this community has an instinctual negative reaction to a first post from a new forum member being another "IL2 is more realistic" thread.  For whatever its worth...

[Angus]

I flew Il-2 for a while both offline and online. I flew AH at the same time, online. I also was fortunate enough to have some stick-time in real aircraft at the same time.
IMHO, AH wins hand down. What Il-2 has/had was nicer graphics, nice gunnery model (t'was before AHII), and more complexity, such as engine management. But the flight model...never a choice.
For fun, I have tested some maneuvers that I have seen from WWII footage, airshows, as well as being described in books. It was quite encouraging to see that they were not easy at all in AH. Some I have not been able to copy.

[jdbecks]

I Tried very hard to get into IL2, I wanted to play it for the single player campaign..on of my annoying gripes was engine over heating which i could turn off, but my biggest gripe was the flight model all the planes felt the same just a different cockpit, when I fly AH I can instantly feel a difference between a 109G2 and 109K4 etc, and AH gives me a real sense of speed and different feeling of the plane doing manovers at different speeds, something IL2 could not give me

I am soooo glad AH deos not model advance engine management as it would take the fun out of it for me, RPM and throttle control is enough for me

[Kweassa]

The concept of 'complex engine management' doesn't necessarily include the crazy overheat issues...

Frankly, the CEM is neither truly 'complex' nor more 'realistic' than compared to AH, and it is more of a bunch of arbitrary selections among all the real-life pilot workload that is simplified into one or two extra keys to press during flight - which gives out an illusion that one is actually 'managing' the plane in someway.

...

However, I dig the illusion.

In retrospect, getting used to the CEM in IL-2 was no biggy at all, but it did give you a few fingermashing moments which was quite entertaining... and it also gave out an individual feel to all the planes - the VVS planes require a bit more manual input than others, the early US planes feel not much different at all... until the arrival of mid/late war planes, which feel a lot more advanced than the earlier variants...  and the LW planes feel very comfortable and advanced from the start, being equipped with the [supercharger-mixture-throttle-in-one] controls.. and the Brit planes feel... well.. eccentric..

I don't support the CEM because it's more complicated, or because it's more realistic - I support it because it provides cool immersion factor without really making things too difficult. It was a clever implementation with a lot of good compromises. I mean hey, some people still believe that CEM is 'realistic' or 'complex' - that's a good indication that the clever little 'trick' for immersion actually worked in IL-2. It's a good idea.

[Bolt64]

  Stoney and all who stand by this or any other sim..it's all good ..just some like to get in depth a little more on these topics ..I'm guilty



Bolt

[jdbecks]

It was a clever implementation with a lot of good compromises. I mean hey, some people still believe that CEM is 'realistic' or 'complex' - that's a good indication that the clever little 'trick' for immersion actually worked in IL-2. It's a good idea.

I did not find it complex nor realistic, just tapping annoying keys every now and then was more of a pain in the bellybutton for me and did not provide any more immersion. A better flight model or more involving campaign would have been more immersion.

[Chalenge]

109 fans might find this interesting (when its released):

http://www.amazon.com/Messerschmitt-Bf109-Owners-Workshop-Manual/dp/1844256421/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1262208653&sr=8-1

The only reference I could find on full throttle use and WEP having been forbidden was during takeoff configuration but the manual I found that said that was already translated.

[thorsim]

found this interesting while surfing today ...

http://manaboutmayfair.blogspot.com/2006/04/aces-high-ww-ii.html

[Guppy35]

found this interesting while surfing today ...

http://manaboutmayfair.blogspot.com/2006/04/aces-high-ww-ii.html

Wow! Both a 109 and a P51 dumping flaps in combat!

[Bronk]

Wow! Both a 109 and a P51 dumping flaps in combat!

[thorsim]

yea i actually have some more accounts on the flaps i will be posting in another thread ...

although the degree of flap deflection is not stated here i had a friend finally show me some that did so i am retracting my suspicions of the possibility of extreme flap deflections in combat in TRW ...

i have some actual AARs he showed me of the use of extreme flaps in combat, so consider this a preview of me correcting myself with more coming later ...

i just have to upload and relay the documents ...

so i was wrong about the extreme use of flaps in combat historically, and will post more data that shows my error in a week or two ...

sorry if the process was very painful, but these documents were the first i have seen that actually detailed extreme flap deflections that i have seen, and i was skeptical before i saw them.

can't really say more than that, i hope you guys enjoyed the story above and beyond the flaps ...

+S+

t

[Kweassa]

I did not find it complex nor realistic, just tapping annoying keys every now and then was more of a pain in the bellybutton for me and did not provide any more immersion. A better flight model or more involving campaign would have been more immersion.

It's a matter of taste I guess - since the basic line of argument can be used by anyone. For others, having to memorize at which specific altitudes a plane performs better, which has a better absolute performance, when to drop flaps and when not and etc etc.. all can be equally pain in the ass, since the overall 'feeling' of aerial combat may be all they need to feel immersion - in which case these players would prefer stuff like "relaxed realism" and etc..

I agree that tapping around the keys can be an annoyance, but ofcourse IMO that's the whole point of it. Some planes are more cumbersome to control, others are simple and user-comfy. This gives each plane type an individual characteristic which, to me, is no different from some planes turning better than others, others climbing better, others diving faster.. and etc..

Ofcourse, we cannot expect a game developer to model 100% interactive cockpits and game pilots to learn to fly a plane exactly the way they should be flown... but how a plane was managed is also a part of combat, and some planes do have an advantage over others in this aspect. If there is a reasonable way to mimic and implement this aspect into a game without going down the MSFS "mouse-click everything" approach, it's how 1C did it in IL-2 - it works.

[Oldman731]

found this interesting while surfing today ...

http://manaboutmayfair.blogspot.com/2006/04/aces-high-ww-ii.html

Do we have any idea what the source of this is?

Not that I want to be a weiner, but it's a suspicious-sounding account to me.

- oldman

[Badboy]

Do we have any idea what the source of this is?

Not that I want to be a weiner, but it's a suspicious-sounding account to me.

- oldman

I only browsed that site for a few seconds and spotted so many factual errors, I stopped reading.

Badboy

[Guppy35]

yea i actually have some more accounts on the flaps i will be posting in another thread ...

although the degree of flap deflection is not stated here i had a friend finally show me some that did so i am retracting my suspicions of the possibility of extreme flap deflections in combat in TRW ...

i have some actual AARs he showed me of the use of extreme flaps in combat, so consider this a preview of me correcting myself with more coming later ...

i just have to upload and relay the documents ...

so i was wrong about the extreme use of flaps in combat historically, and will post more data that shows my error in a week or two ...

sorry if the process was very painful, but these documents were the first i have seen that actually detailed extreme flap deflections that i have seen, and i was skeptical before i saw them.

can't really say more than that, i hope you guys enjoyed the story above and beyond the flaps ...

+S+

t

Apology accepted