No Enemy Icons, The new standard

[Squire]

Disclaimer: This is just my own opinion on icons in flight sims and has nothing to do with what I see for FSO in the future.

First off, the ability to glance at an airplane that is 3000 yards away (short icon range in AH) which is almost 2 miles and immediately tell thats its friend or foe is many orders of magnitude easier to do than telling if it was friend or foe in real life. Even modern fighters with 4th generation electronic kits cannot identify a/n aircraft that easily.

Secondly, and this is important to remember; in the Second World War there was much more censoring of the media than there is now. You were not permitted to write about a lot of things that happened and have then published. Stay with me here, the point is coming...papers of the day did NOT EVER, have an article about what we call now "friendly fire". Further to that, when loved ones were notified about a death, the information rarely if ever included much detail, and it would certainly never have said if Captain X died from an incident from that sort of thing. It was assumed, in almost all cases, that the departed met their end at the hands of the enemy.

So where does that leave us? it leaves us with a somewhat "slanted" view of how common "blue on blue" fire was in WW2. It was not reported to the public, pure and simple. It was im sure considered "bad for morale" and all that. Even amongst the fighting services, it was bit dwelled on for similar reasons.

The fact was that shooting at friendly airplanes was a common problem. WW2 air combat happens at speeds of 200-900 mph (depending on the angle), in hazy, cloudy, sometimes low light surroundings. Its not like walking up to a parked P-51D at an airshow and having a nice long look at it in the noon day sun from 20 feet away nice and calmly, without worrying about getting killed while flying in a real dogfight, with your adrenalin pumped through the roof.

The pilots in those days had no way of knowing who was who without getting close enough to identify an a/c with eyeballs only. Despite HUGE national insignias on the wings and fuselage, they still fired at each other sometimes, even at close range.

My point being that more often than not, enemy a/c were identified by a variety of factors: formation they were in, alt, a/c type, direction of travel, ect, as well as color schemes and finally, closer in, sillouettes and markings. There was no "red sign" sitting above the a/c telling you its an enemy. If there was there would have been no need for D-Day invasion stripes, ID stripes, national insignias and a/c recognition intel posters (which judging from some accounts more than a few pilots and AAA gunners should have spent more time looking at).

So I take the contrary view of some posters and say "dont think because you have icons that has anything to do with reality". Icons are there to help in GAME PLAY, to make it easier for the casual gamer to know who the bad guy is, just as in flight IFF radar is in the Main Arena.

[Vulcan]

First off, the ability to glance at an airplane that is 3000 yards away (short icon range in AH) which is almost 2 miles and immediately tell thats its friend or foe is many orders of magnitude easier to do than telling if it was friend or foe in real life. Even modern fighters with 4th generation electronic kits cannot identify a/n aircraft that easily.

I disagree entirely, spotting and identifying an aircraft at 2 miles is not difficult at all. You'll probably find that most blue on blue incidents were cases of 'buck fever', a function of the brain rather than the eye.  The USAF did an air to ground target detection study and found pilots were able to spot and identify targets (ie trucks, cars etc) from 6.5 miles to 2.8 miles <- note 2.8 was the minimum - and this is ground targets.

[Squire]

Im not saying that its "not possible", the difference is the immediate, and unmistakable CERTAINTY of an "icon" which they did not have the benefit of, and changes the dynamic of any engagement.

"a function of the brain rather than the eye."

Exactly. Thats also the problem. Under stress and less than perfect circumstances - too often the case - misidentification is all too easy and the acounts are full of such misadventures, many tragic.

"The USAF did an air to ground target detection study and found pilots were able to spot and identify targets (ie trucks, cars etc) from 6.5 miles to 2.8 miles"

I can picture you diving into a muddy Normandy ditch with a copy of your study under you arm as your jeep is strafed to ruin by a pair of P-47s. 

[hlbly]

Then you need to recheck what you actually see because steroscopic vision is emulated fairly well...according to your judgment (that stereoscopic vision doesn't exist in AH) no one should be able to land a plane or dive toward the ground without augering since depth perception cannot be achieved without it.

Do metal parts of the canopy obstruct vision . Parts you could see around in RL ? Find a spot on the wall , close one eye put index finger in front of eye about an inch away . Object can't be seen . This is what you get in AH2 . Open other eye , object can be seen . Now you can't tell how far spot is away . Lower index finger now you can tell how far away it is . Now stereoscopic vision , no depth perception . Stereoscopic vision is a function of two eyes . Depth perception is a function of the slight difference in how the eye is placed . One is slightly further forward of the other . Depth perception  emulated I think . Other is not .

[hlbly]

And there is no stereoscopic vision beyond like 10m distance in RL - the difference in angle is just too small. But still it will be cited whenever the icon/no icon discussion comes up. Beyond 10m our brain calculates distances or depth just the same as when staring at your screen - by relative size of objects, memorized pictures like landscapes and fleet point (dunno what the proper word in english is - german: Fucht oder Fluchtpunkt).

Above mentioned is why all those 3D computer gizmos don't work well with sims. Because there is no stereoscopic 3D beyond a certain point. You can get a nice 3D view of your cockpit but it won't change how you see the planes at 300yards - on the contrary you might even get the aquarium effect where those planes will look like fishies in a aquarium or toys in a box because the 3D effect is unrealistic and the object will appear to your brain to be much smaller and closer...

You are confused . Three terms you need to be familiar with distance perception depth perception and stereoscopic vision . Stereoscopic vision in no way relates to distance . Each eye recieves a slightly different "picture" . This data is sent from the eye to the brain where it is processed and fused into one picture . Alternate closing one eye then other . Notice the difference . Do it outside . No matter the range it is slightly different . Distance perception is based upon the memory of the size of objects . Depth Perception" has very specific and limited meaning. This is the distance straight ahead of the viewer's eye, toward or into an object or surface. By definition, depth is looking straight into a hole or tube and estimating forward distances. Doing this accurately requires binocular stereoscopic vision (stereopsis) and may be more difficult or less accurate for people lacking stereopsis. Their depth vision must rely on visual cues other than stereopsis. To have these I believe would require some type of glasses be used . Not sure on that .

[Delirium]

I'm all for a 'no icon' set up when true VR headsets with a decent resolution become the standard for home gaming.

Until then, I will never help populate an event that has them off. I respect the CMs and the work they do, but that is my opinion on it. 

[SD67]

But, Del, it's not a "No icon" even, it's more of a limited icon event, with short friendly icons and no enemy ones.

[Kirin]

You are confused . Three terms you need to be familiar with distance perception depth perception and stereoscopic vision . Stereoscopic vision in no way relates to distance . Each eye recieves a slightly different "picture" . This data is sent from the eye to the brain where it is processed and fused into one picture . Alternate closing one eye then other . Notice the difference . Do it outside . No matter the range it is slightly different . Distance perception is based upon the memory of the size of objects . Depth Perception" has very specific and limited meaning. This is the distance straight ahead of the viewer's eye, toward or into an object or surface. By definition, depth is looking straight into a hole or tube and estimating forward distances. Doing this accurately requires binocular stereoscopic vision (stereopsis) and may be more difficult or less accurate for people lacking stereopsis. Their depth vision must rely on visual cues other than stereopsis. To have these I believe would require some type of glasses be used . Not sure on that .

I am in no way confused. Maybe the inaccuracies come because English is a foreign language for me. Binocular fusional vision or stereoscopic vision as related to depth perception is distance related. It's a matter of simple geometry. If the seen object is beyond a certain distance the angle between this object and your both eyes - or otherwise put - the difference between the two pictures of each eye is two small to compute. That's when you focus to infinity - e.g. beyond 10m or so (still haven't checked with my neurologist collegue).

Now take the thumb example you put up. Imagine a pole at 50m - let's have it a size so it matches the wide of your thumb on your extended arm. As you say you will get two different pictures when looking at your thumb allowing you to 'see behind' it - but that doesn't work with the pole although the obstruction of your FOV is the same. You won't see anything else 'behind' the pole no matter what eye you close or if you look with both.

Other example. I am just watching a pair of PC-21 doing dogfight training maybe about 600m out of my window (really - they do!!   ). There is no way for me to tell their relative position to each other but the 2D clues you mentioned when you talked about distance perception. Now imagine 2 toy planes at a distance of my extended arm which are about the same size as the real planes further out. I can easily tell their relative position to each other because depth perception thanks to binocular fusional vision works perfectly at this distance.



Yet another example. You know the test where you have to put two pencils points on each other. Impossible on the first try with one eye closed - easy with both eyes (unless you lack depth perception as you mentioned - but that's a brain malfunction... ). Now imagine a remote controlled device doing the same thing 50m out (again, scale it so it's the same size is the pencils) - having 1 or 2 eyes won't help you with the task since it is beyond the distance of binocular fusional vision for the need of depth perception.

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As I said I will check with someone who HAS to know the facts straight to once and for all settle the issue...

[Stoney]

I disagree entirely, spotting and identifying an aircraft at 2 miles is not difficult at all. You'll probably find that most blue on blue incidents were cases of 'buck fever', a function of the brain rather than the eye.  The USAF did an air to ground target detection study and found pilots were able to spot and identify targets (ie trucks, cars etc) from 6.5 miles to 2.8 miles <- note 2.8 was the minimum - and this is ground targets.

That's why we don't have any more fratricide incidents due to blue aircraft, right?  I can tell you that even the most conspicuous friendly ground vehicles and aircraft can be, have been, and will be again, misidentified by aircraft, even with the most sophisticated optical gear.  I've either experienced it first-hand, or been close to it second-hand.  Everything from iron-bomb use, to sophisticated imaging devices, to strafing from cannon.  Its called "Fog of War", and it will always exist.

I agree with Squire completely.  And, if the Combat Challenge event is a bellwether, before my tenure as an FSO Admin is up, we'll have a "no enemy icon" event, at least for the first frame.

[Valkyrie]

You know I was not very clear here. I mean enemy icons off or there will be chases going on all night between friendly aircraft. Combat Challange was the bell weather for at least that.


Vlkyrie1

[jolly22]

they're slowly lowering it, it used to be 3k then 2.5 then 2k and now 1000yds, so i think they'll get to it.

[FiLtH]

   If thats so Stoney, thats one event I will miss.

[ghostdancer]

Jolly, no we are not slowly lowering it. The icon range is up to each admin to set for his event. It is not set by a universal FSO policy or affected by other designs.

[Delirium]

And, if the Combat Challenge event is a bellwether, before my tenure as an FSO Admin is up, we'll have a "no enemy icon" event, at least for the first frame.

All I ask is that you post the frame date well in advance so I can make other plans.

It looks like I will actually be able to start flying in FSO on March 12th on and I don't want any surprises.

Thanks

[PFactorDave]

Short Icons isn't fun for me.  I would hate for FSO to start sucking.  Please don't go down that road any farther then you already have...