No Enemy Icons, The new standard

[Vulcan]

If you mean using the same well groomed, long prepared rhetoric that has manifested itself here without question (including from me) for years because no one has actually tried anything to the contrary, I would agree.

Except some of us have tried, both in the combat challenge and AVA.

[Vulcan]

Please enlighten us with your wisdom...how would turning enemy icons off destroy FSO or be similar to Warbirds in any manner? If you personally need enemy icons for some reason other than as a crutch then speak up...I'm guessing you had a hard time trying not to get shot down and don't want to have to face that situation again.

Bad news for you (and some others)...I don't like the possibility that I might have to be allied for an event, or being assigned to a bomber, or ordered to carry bombs for a dive bombing mission...and most of my squad feels the same way but the only thing that stops us from participating is the occasional real life issue that pops up...otherwise we fly what we are assigned and do what we are assigned to do...that is how adults do things.

Bad news for me and some others? What bad news? Daddog has stated icons stay as is. Learn to read sonny

and as for not getting shot down, lets have a look at the combat challenge logs:

21:57:39 Departed from Field #36 in a Bf 109F-4
22:19:23 Helps IrishOne shoot down 68Wooley.
22:44:49 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #48.
23:06:32 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
23:07:15 Departed from Field #45 in a Bf 109F-4
23:16:09 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
23:16:44 Departed from Field #46 in a Bf 109F-4
23:21:36 Was shot down by Vlkyrie1 (crashed).
23:22:31 Departed from Field #46 in a Bf 109E-4
23:25:19 Helps Bubi shoot down Cattb.
23:29:27 Was shot down by Reaper90 (crashed).

4 deaths, no kills there kiddo... versus...

Vulcan
21:57:09 Departed from Field #49 in a Bf 109F-4
22:14:22 Was shot down by unknown enemy.
22:14:42 Departed from Field #49 in a Bf 109F-4
22:23:00 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by HacksawX.
22:27:34 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by P5ifTone.
22:28:32 Helps Hitcher3 shoot down 68Bwulf.
22:31:53 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #45.
22:42:52 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by Cope.
22:42:56 Tragically crashed.
22:43:01 Departed from Field #49 in a Bf 109F-4
22:46:20 Awarded kill as plissken crashes.
22:46:35 Shot down a Lancaster III flown by rattler2.
22:46:51 Shot down a Lancaster III flown by plissken.
22:47:08 Helps Robeaver shoot down plissken.
22:51:03 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #49.
23:06:39 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by Rockdog.
23:07:35 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by 1Cajun.
23:13:45 Awarded kill as Rebel59 crashes.
23:14:04 Shot down a Spitfire Mk V flown by Rockdog.
23:15:29 Captured by enemy forces.

3 deaths, 10 kills.

Whoops what was that you were saying?

[gyrene81]

Constantly putting yourself on an abritrary pedestal and calling everybody else weak fools for "needing" icons is only going to get your proverbial forum arse kicked, son.

Might want to take a huge dose of wisdom, humility, and understanding (in any order) and realise how baseless your insults really are.

Everybody has explained to you why icons are here and why "no icons" is as far from realistic as possible, yet you and your 3 other fellow crusaders keep harping about it and insulting anybody who doesn't agree.

Nice....

Smooth.

Krusty, there is nothing arbitrary about my pedestal...it stands higher than yours because I'm not the one doing the childish "it's my ball and I'm going home because" routine...you are far from being old enough or big enough to call me son and insinuate you could do anything more than nod when standing in my presence.


Fact is icons are a crutch put in place to level the playing field for everyone...and if there were no enemy icons enabled in the program from the early days, everyone today, including yourself would be crying foul if someone came along and suggested that enemy icons should be used. When an icon appears with a description and distance indicator for every object I look at in real life, then your assertion of icons being more realistic will not be argued against...but as it stands right now in real world outside of AH, there are no icons and no distance indicators telling us how far something is from our bodies.

[Vulcan]

Fact is icons are a crutch put in place to level the playing field for everyone

Fact is icons are in place as the game cannot render or provide the fidelity in both stereoscopic vision and depth cues the real world provides.

p.s you 'pedestal' has been kicked out, see above.

[gyrene81]

Bad news for me and some others? What bad news? Daddog has stated icons stay as is. Learn to read sonny

and as for not getting shot down, lets have a look at the combat challenge logs:

4 deaths, no kills there kiddo... versus...

3 deaths, 10 kills.

Whoops what was that you were saying?

Nice job there Vulcan...but then I'm not the one crying foul about no enemy icons in spite of those numbers...you are sonny. Maybe you should re-read everything in this thread, it's no enemy icons and every CM has the choice on what settings to use...the no enemy icons was an experiment which turned out pretty well for a first time thing...and we all know that the no enemy icons setting won't be something adopted any time in the near future, but as more people with open minds and a taste for bigger challenges experience it...who knows what the future holds?

some snot nosed kid tweaking on red bull wants his icons off.

Amazing how the pots call the kettles black around here.


I just wonder what you would be saying if there were no enemy icons in the game when you first started playing...would you be as strong arguing against turning them on as you are about turning them off? Think about it...if AH didn't have enemy icons on in the first place, would you want them turned on?

Fact is icons are in place as the game cannot render or provide the fidelity in both stereoscopic vision and depth cues the real world provides.

p.s you 'pedestal' has been kicked out, see above.

You just hurt your foot...try studying stereoscopic vision instead of parroting what someone else brought up...depth perception is a result of stereoscopic vision...and depth perception is fairly well modelled in AH, or are you insinuating AH is just a 2D environment? What is not well modelled is focal point vision which allows us to see details on objects at distance without the aid of telescopic enhancements...but that is a limitation of the scaled down environment and texture rendering...in AH objects at 1000 yards do not have the amount of detail a human with 20/20 vision could see...it's more like 20/80 or maybe 20/100 vision...but the depth is there to the point where if a person were to get used to looking at the objects with and without distance indicators, that person would learn to tell relative distances in AH without distance any assistance from distance indicators...just like we do in real life...even people with just one good eye.

[Motherland]

Except some of us have tried, both in the combat challenge and AVA.

Some of you have...
I don't think Icons have ever been off in the AvA, considering when asked if they would consider it as a setting a couple days/weeks ago it seemed as if they'd never even thought about it before... but I haven't been in the AvA since no icons was made possible (what was that, December '09)?
And I don't think Krusty (or pretty much anyone on 'the other side' beside you...) attended Combat Challenge.

[Valkyrie]

Krusty is mad because if the icons go away he wont hit toejam with his 30mm tater launchers on his Fascist iron. He might have to out fly his opponent for once.

Vlkyrie1

[Tarstar]

I give a big salute to the CM staff for trying something different.. And for all the work they put in each week to provide us with these scenarios.. I personally feel the short icon range makes for a more challenging twist but I can also understand why many would hate it.. So while I'm not casting a 'vote' so to speak, either way I think it's cool that the guys are trying to increase immersion and keep things fresh.. It would be nice not to see this thread turn into the typical slew of insults and bashing found in the general forum..  

[Vulcan]

You just hurt your foot...try studying stereoscopic vision instead of parroting what someone else brought up...depth perception is a result of stereoscopic vision...and depth perception is fairly well modelled in AH, or are you insinuating AH is just a 2D environment?

Err perhaps you should check the icon threads. You'll note that I've played AH quite a lot in stereoscopic 3D. I use a Z-800 Virtual Reality Headset with Dual OLED Displays (have done for about 4 years now). Full Depth perception needs a lot more fidelity than any computer game can provide, and whilst you can play AH in stereoscopic 3D (something I doubt you've done) the majority of users do not have this tech available to them (and there are side issues with 3D tech and peoples vision I won't go into).

So, yet again you fail - massively.

[Motherland]

Out of curiosity, Vulcan, did you really think that you had an advantage with SS 3D (if you used it during the combat challenge?)
I had no issue (which is obvious from the logs) despite that being my first time flying in weeks, with just a standard monitor.

[Vulcan]

Out of curiosity, Vulcan, did you really think that you had an advantage with SS 3D (if you used it during the combat challenge?)
I had no issue (which is obvious from the logs) despite that being my first time flying in weeks, with just a standard monitor.

Yes definitely, you could pick energy states and relative motion very clearly. It made for very good snap shots. Usually this was in the AVA ages ago when icons were off or extremely short range. Though I did find the faster the ride the less the SS 3D played a part unless you got into a very close knife fight.

The reason I stopped using SS 3D was a video card upgrade, I went from a 7600GT to a GTX 285. The new nvidia drivers do not support 3rd party 3D products - only their own 3D Vision stuff. I've been experimenting with the IZ3D driver, but that doesn't work well with AH. Rumour is ATI are releasing DirectX S3D drivers with their 10.3 driver release, so I might have to switch camps from nvidia to ATI.

[Krusty]

Ignoring the constant ego-boosting that gyrene is giving himself (get a room, man! or we're going to call the cops!) I have to reply to motherland: No I did not participate in "combat challenge" because I have already done no-icons things in the past. It has not changed much.

A number of folks had fun in combat challenge, but you cannot say they would have had less fun with the icons on. Had the idea simply come up as an off-week filler fun night, the same folks (maybe more?) would have showed up, flown the same mission, and had the same fun.

Saying it was all because of the icon setting is a little rich, no?


Hell, I was flying no-icon missions with Frank back in HTH eons ago. Couldn't see the white invasion stripes on a P-51B until you were 200 out, saddled up, and about to shoot down your friendly.

P.S. Your comments in the other thread are a little rich too. I've seen airlines way the hell above me (DIA is quite busy) and you can spot the colors. Nobody's saying they're blotted out by the sun. From an airliner window seat you can also look DOWN on the world with quality only limited by the haze in the air (not the lack of vision on the person), and you cannot tell the difference in the shape of aircraft without "max zoom" settings until it's far too late to do anything about it.

[Motherland]

Saying it was all because of the icon setting is a little rich, no?

It was 100% because of the icon settings. It was just a standard furball otherwise. Everyone's seen that before.

Hell, I was flying no-icon missions with Frank back in HTH eons ago. Couldn't see the white invasion stripes on a P-51B until you were 200 out, saddled up, and about to shoot down your friendly.

C'Mon you can't complain about 'ridiculous claims' in the same post as this

[Krusty]

You can't claim folks only showed up for the "no icons"

Foolish to say so.

Folks show up because it's the off-week, it's friday night, and they want some action. If nothing is done in the SEA they'll show up in the LWAs (or AVA or whatever).

Folks are going to fly no matter what you put up. Matter of fact, folks LIKE the kind of mission you had in the combat challenge. Bomber interceptions and squad v squad fighter sweeps. It has been the STAPLE of snapshot-type events for YEARS before "Combat Challenge" did it. It's why folks play this game. Saying they only showed up because of the icon setting is "rich" to say the least.

[Motherland]

Matter of fact, folks LIKE the kind of mission you had in the combat challenge. Bomber interceptions and squad v squad fighter sweeps.

I'm sure that they would have. However, beside the first sortie, Combat Challenge was a 2 hour furball over the English Channel with no icons.