Icon Philosophy - Approach

[Bronk]

 Also take away the zoom feature.  If you're going to do it, do it right.

A closer representation of normal vission perception is the default gun zoom. But it leaves you with out any perfial vision.

Just thought you'd like to know.

[Wiley]

Hrm... interesting.  Is that based on monitor size x at a specific distance from your eye?  Basically at default zoom that's 'life size' on that monitor?

Off to do some forum searching...

Wiley.

[BnZs]

The truth is, neither approach is perfectly realistic.

In the balance, you are far less likely to be able to do a successful surprise "bounce" in an arena with icon. However, is causing fights instead of bounces a bad thing?

Note: I kinda of doubt friendly-icons-only would facilitate bounces. You see a large dot, it has no green icon, you know it's a bad guy. Duh.

I have played in no-icon arenas in Il2. It is not a very inspiring experiences. Consists almost entirely of players wandering around, occasionally spotting and picking each other. Friendly fire is a problem, even with the highest zoom and best graphics/monitor combo, very hard to tell some kinds of planes from another. Hoing is a problem, you don't know whether you're coming or going until it's too late.

In an imperfect flight sim world, ICONs are still the best solution IMHO.

[gyrene81]

The truth is, neither approach is perfectly realistic.

True...but I'm not sure "perfect realism" is the idea...at least not for the people enjoying the AvA settings...it's just a more immersive experience.

In the balance, you are far less likely to be able to do a successful surprise "bounce" in an arena with icon. However, is causing fights instead of bounces a bad thing?

Note: I kinda of doubt friendly-icons-only would facilitate bounces. You see a large dot, it has no green icon, you know it's a bad guy. Duh.

Not really...it's pretty much a wash whether it's a dot your looking at or a dot with an icon hiding it...any dot is cause for suspicion when the enemy icons are missing and the friendly is set to 3k.

In an imperfect flight sim world, ICONs are still the best solution IMHO.

In spite of your experiences in IL2...this is AH and there are some big differences...you should try the AvA when a bunch of us are in there...then give your opinion.

[Wiley]

The point is, they've still got to see the dot, as opposed to a dot with a big red sign below it.  It's easier to miss it in the clutter of the screen/with a quick glance.  Obviously, if you see the dot, you can keep an eye on it.

Looking for a 'bounce' versus looking for a 'fight' is exactly the delineating line.  Some people like to take off and treat it somewhat "like real life".  They garner every advantage, fly conservatively, and do everything they can to RTB after killing something, preferably without the guy even seeing them.  It's fun for them to fly conservatively and to survive.  They pays their 15 bucks, they flies their planes how they want to.  I've got no problem with it.

Sometimes I'm in the mood for that kind of gameplay.  Most of the time though I fall somewhere in the middle.  I climb somewhat so I have E on the guys that are really down in the weeds and I find the biggest bar dar I can, and go 'work the crowd.'  I get all kinds of fights then.  I get high stuff, co-alt stuff, and low stuff to fight with.  That's fun for me, to see if I can survive without stacking the deck too far in my direction.  My K/D reflects this choice...

Then there are the nights after a bad day at work when my copilot is Captain Morgan, my navigator is Leeroy Jenkins, and I'm down there in the weeds TnBing and doing 'stupid' things.

The problem with the first set of guys, if you get an arena with 95% of that playstyle, you're just going to wind up with a great, giant bunch of aircraft climbing to infinity and beyond so they can have the advantage before they attack.  Two constantly moving of lines aircraft that try to move in, see there are planes with alt and/or speed on them, and reverse...  until they all run out of gas.

A supply of people who aren't trying to do the same thing as they are makes it easier for them to get into fights.  There tend to be more lower fights, which is why people quite often ask for it to be put into a populated arena 'so people can nut up and fly with their manly man no icon settings.'

Wiley.

[jimson]

I guess that's why we have vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry.

There does seem to be a market for no/limited icon settings, so having them in one arena that doesn't get much play anymore otherwise seems to be a good balance.

[SEraider]

Anytime anyone doesn't want icons, hit 'alt I' until they all go away.

Problem solved.

That is not what my thread is about Del, please go back and re-read it.  Especially my last lines.

[SEraider]

Still it's not something to that should be forced on the masses in the main arenas even once a month.

Fine, I am not saying it to force it on anybody.  But I would not mind trying it one time in the special arena one night to see what the differences are in combat dynamics with all aircraft enabled.  Some who don't want to try it stay in the MA. 

[2bighorn]

It's for everybody. 

Why?

[2bighorn]

Fine, I am not saying it to force it on anybody.  But I would not mind trying it one time in the special arena one night to see what the differences are in combat dynamics with all aircraft enabled.  Some who don't want to try it stay in the MA. 

Done in AvA and select few scenarios. Majority don't like it. Why another experiment?

[gyrene81]

The point is, they've still got to see the dot, as opposed to a dot with a big red sign below it.  It's easier to miss it in the clutter of the screen/with a quick glance.  Obviously, if you see the dot, you can keep an eye on it.

But that is true even with full icons...you can lose sight of one in the clutter at any time, and even with icons on you still have to take the time to find it again...at the ranges involved with an engaged fight, icons don't really make a difference.

Looking for a 'bounce' versus looking for a 'fight' is exactly the delineating line.  Some people like to take off and treat it somewhat "like real life".  They garner every advantage, fly conservatively, and do everything they can to RTB after killing something, preferably without the guy even seeing them.  It's fun for them to fly conservatively and to survive.  They pays their 15 bucks, they flies their planes how they want to.  I've got no problem with it.

Come on Wiley, that is true regardless of the arena and you know it...having no enemy icons does not make people more prone to "play it safe" in spite of what you might think...it just makes the fight more challenging.

Sometimes I'm in the mood for that kind of gameplay.  Most of the time though I fall somewhere in the middle.  I climb somewhat so I have E on the guys that are really down in the weeds and I find the biggest bar dar I can, and go 'work the crowd.'  I get all kinds of fights then.  I get high stuff, co-alt stuff, and low stuff to fight with.  That's fun for me, to see if I can survive without stacking the deck too far in my direction.  My K/D reflects this choice...

I don't think you're all alone in that boat...that is all I do unless it's squad night.

A supply of people who aren't trying to do the same thing as they are makes it easier for them to get into fights.  There tend to be more lower fights, which is why people quite often ask for it to be put into a populated arena 'so people can nut up and fly with their manly man no icon settings.'

Wiley.

You really need to visit the AvA when a bunch of us are in there...you would be surprised at what happens. While I was on last night was not atypical due to the large number of Brewsters flying around and the B239's performance...and I don't agree with the setup but...it was fun none the less. Some of just enjoy a challenge regardless of the inevitable outcome.

Done in AvA and select few scenarios. Majority don't like it. Why another experiment?

Majority? Surely you jest...I see maybe 5 or 6 naysayers out of something like 40 or 50 bbs regulars and somewhere in the neighborhood of 600 active AH players...is the 1% talking for the other 99% now?

[SEraider]

Done in AvA and select few scenarios. Majority don't like it. Why another experiment?

Which scenarios?  In special arenas or just A v A?  If it is just the A v A, it is limited to known aircraft.  Are you sure majority don't like it? Or the majority on just the bbs?  Only a small percentage contribute to bbs and most don't like changes as it is.  That is a broad statement.  Has this idea ever been tried in a broad spectum of aircraft?  How could that change combat?  That is a worthy experiment (although the development of this thread puts me into a tiny minority).  

[Wiley]

But that is true even with full icons...you can lose sight of one in the clutter at any time, and even with icons on you still have to take the time to find it again...at the ranges involved with an engaged fight, icons don't really make a difference.

Sure.  The fact that the icon doesn't show unless you can see the airframe also makes them have less of an impact.  I'm just saying with a quick six check, it's a lot easier to miss a dot than it is a block of red text.

Come on Wiley, that is true regardless of the arena and you know it...having no enemy icons does not make people more prone to "play it safe" in spite of what you might think...it just makes the fight more challenging.

Yeah, but one of the biggest talking points of the no icon crowd is that it negates the bounce, or the low six sneak.  Not saying the no icons causes it, but I think you'd find the vast majority (I'd bet at least 13 of the 17 ) of the no icon crowd has that playstyle, or pretty close to it.

Really, SEraider, I don't think it would change gameplay that much vs the AvA.

Wiley.

[2bighorn]

1.) Why are there icons now?

2.) How many times people came up with such a brilliant idea as no icons? Why and what happened to those ideas/proposals?

3.) Why do we have icons now?

4.) If others can't understand what a grand idea that is, why you guys simply don't ask HiTech to change the arena settings.

5.) Why are there icons now?

[dedalos]

Looking for a 'bounce' versus looking for a 'fight' is exactly the delineating line.  Some people like to take off and treat it somewhat "like real life".  They garner every advantage, fly conservatively, and do everything they can to RTB after killing something, preferably without the guy even seeing them.  It's fun for them to fly conservatively and to survive.  They pays their 15 bucks, they flies their planes how they want to.  I've got no problem with it.

Wiley.

What do you know  I was not full of watermelon when I was talking about why people like the no icons and about the quality of the so called "fights"