D9 guns again.

[Vermillion]

And Kirin, why is it that so many non-dedicated 190 pilots fly the Dora and have no problems what so ever hitting with it?

Strange that only a very small subset of the pilot base experiences what is described as being a "massive" problem.

You would think that logically, if such a problem existed, the non-dedicated pilots would experience the problem to a much greater degree due to their lack of experience with the aircraft type.

But thats not the case.

All I know is that I'm done with the issue.

I bring facts and solid historical information to the discussion, and you guys tell me it "feels" wrong, and its not like you expect it too be. But none of you are willing to do any solid testing, find new information, or anything else at all that may help us solve this problem one way or the other. In other words, you want to complain, but you don't want to do any of the hard work to determine if there really IS a problem or not.

How do I debate or problem solve against someones feelings and impressions? Its impossible.

All I know is that Pyro, is the kind of person to be convinced by solid facts.

So I will shut up, the luftwobble contingent will continue to complain, and the Dora will stay the exact same as it is today. And this will just feed the flames of the constant whines of "Your all just anti-luftwaffe, you pro american opportunist bastards".

So... *whatever*  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Kirin]

About the 190 pilots - maybe they just have the experience in the other 190 models to notice the difference in the D9! I maybe overshot a bit; I am not saying it's impossible to kill in the D9 but (shooting-wise) much harder than in the other 190 models. Don't get me wrong - the D9 is great plane but there *seems* something different with the gunnery than in the other 190s.

About Pyro - why not the other way around. One little statement like "The gunnery in the D9 is excactly the same as in the other 190s" would be enough to shut up the crowd. Hey, we are the players - we can only state what we observe while playing. HTC are the programmers, they know the numbers and algorithms - they have the facts, present them to us...  

[niklas]

 

Originally posted by Hooligan:
spreng granat patrone

These are HE (not Mine) rounds.

I am not sure about the Ub El and Ub but it might have something to do with the fusing mechanism.

Jay

In a german original document it rather looks like a "Üb". I think it is a shortcut for "Übung" (exercise, practise)

niklas

[Pongo]

Verm
"So I will shut up, the luftwobble contingent will continue to complain, and the Dora will stay the exact same as it is today. And this will just feed the flames of the constant whines of "Your all just anti-luftwaffe, you pro american opportunist bastards".

So... *whatever* "

Must be cold up on that russian soap box you whine from you hypocrite. You have insinuated anti russian biases in the past. Whined about the engines and plane choices and guns..
The funny thing is you wont eat crow if Pyro does find some little thing wrong with the mounting of the D9s guns. You will just wait to pounce on the next guy with a concern about something on a non russian plane.

[straffo]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:

Must be cold up on that russian soap box you whine from you hypocrite. You have insinuated anti russian biases in the past. Whined about the engines and plane choices and guns..
The funny thing is you wont eat crow if Pyro does find some little thing wrong with the mounting of the D9s guns. You will just wait to pounce on the next guy with a concern about something on a non russian plane.

What's uber-boring here is the CONTINOUS FLOW of LuftWHINER (tm) Lament.

Play as is and try to have FUN.

I hope we will have one day a Yak3 in the  NN colors or an IL-2 but I don't whine each week I trust HTC they know their work (except when they put a Yak9T instead of a Yak9UT  )

[MANDOBLE]

The 151/20 facts in AH:
1 - Poor trajectory.
2 - Very poor rate of fire (synchronized ones).
3 - Big dispersion.
4 - gun vibrations (even more dispersion).

If you mix these ingredients with a bit of lag, the result is clear: you can have a slow B17 crossing in front of you at 200 yards and you'll be unable to score a single hit. If you try the same with 109 3x20 (unsyncrhonized guns), the result is remarkabily different, even with same big dispersion. The difference between sync and unsync 151/20 is noticeable. You can do the next test, pick up 109 1x20 and annotate the time needed to spend the 120 bullets. Now pick up a 190A8 2x20 and annotate the time required to spend 240 bullets.

The big dispersion, vibrations and poor trajectory make the guns innacurate, but ROF could compensate it putting more bullets in the air (109 3x20). In our case (D9), ROF + dispersion = desperation. ROF + dispersion + lag = to become a goon driver.

The above related to the 151/20 in general. Now, about D9 vs A5, supposing nothing has been changed into the guns code, perhaps the behaviour of gun shake is different between both planes, degrading even more the effectivenes of D9 guns.

And a final note about gun vibration. IMO, outer guns should produce much more vibrations than inner ones, and those, more vibrations than centerline one. And there are some guns like the Mk108 that produced almost unnoticeable shake effect. Based on this, vibrations in P51D firing 6 outer MGs should be much more noticeable than firing both inner guns in the D9.

[Graywolf]

I mostly fly the Yak9U. I was under the impression that the Russian guns were rather advanced for their day and had high rates of ile and muzzle velocities, but I haven't done any serious reading on the subject.

I find it just about impossible to hit a non-manuvering 190 at 500yds <waves at Blitz>. So generally I try not to open up at things more than 300yds away, unless the little buggers tempt me by not manuvering (grrrr) =)

Works for me.


Note: This is just an an anecdote I'm not saying wether the D9 has a problem or not. I've only flown it online about three times. I really like 190s but find that they don't suit my flying style =(



------------------
Graywolfe <tim@flibble.org>

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by straffo:
What's uber-boring here is the CONTINOUS FLOW of LuftWHINER (tm) Lament.

Play as is and try to have FUN.

I hope we will have one day a Yak3 in the  NN colors or an IL-2 but I don't whine each week I trust HTC they know their work (except when they put a Yak9T instead of a Yak9UT   )

Ya thats not whinning. Sorry there is no cute name for soviet whiners...

[Soulyss]

I'll be the first to admit that I don't really know much about balistics but the guns on the dora just don't feel right to me.  The problem doesn't manifest itself so much in a dogfight where both parties or twisting and banking but when you're firing at a stationary (relatively) target.  A couple weeks back I made a pass on a Lancaster and I didn't make the best approach and ended up sitting on his dead 6 o'clock and fired from d500-d300 or so put the piper square on him right on the body and missed completely.  Just don't seem right.    I dunno, I'll go shutup now  

[straffo]

 

Originally posted by Pongo:
Ya thats not whinning. Sorry there is no cute name for soviet whiners...

Ok now I'll whinne for real as my LuftWobble master taugh me :

The *** is porked I cannot hit any moving target after 600 yards the damage model of the *** whatever is PORKED each time I'm jaboing presenting the radiator of my plane 1st I end getting shot in the radiator
MY *** IS PORKED!

PYRO HT !
I cannot have the field convertion done by my grant uncle during the war who increased the top speed of the *** by 0,5km/h.

Do I need to start a thread to convince you that the bananaing of the LWhatever is an ecological desease poluting this board !

PERK THE P51D/YAK9U/LA7 BUT DON'T PERK THE D9! it's not fair !


Each time I read a LWobble message it's : whinne whinne whinne whinne ... PORK the TURBO HISPANO LASER

CHog delenda est !
CHog delenda est !
CHog delenda est !

<edit> *** mean neither 109 nor 190



[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 04-19-2001).]

[Pongo]

Must be good stuff your smokeing there bud.

[AKSeaWulfe]

Okay.. so no other LimpWristed buttmonkeys have decided to film there engagements to prove to us that the 190D9's guns are screwy. Instead, I offer a film that the D9's guns are fine (I get 3 legit kills, then a 4th to a collision and I then crash) and it's YOUR AIM that needs work. I miss several snapshots because I over shot or undershoot the target. It's a 1MB film and I'm not going to bother uploading it unless I get a bunch of "I want to see it" comments from people. Otherwise it's a waste of my time for me to upload it on my 56K.

Now either quit the squeakin' or give me a real good reason to believe that the D9's guns are screwed rather than "But but something... but!!! but!!!!!!! I have no techinical data or proof.. BUT!!!!! Hispano!!! Chog!!!!".
-SW

[AKSeaWulfe]

 http://communities.msn.com/MMPAviation/files/swdora.zip

Right click, choose save as... and unzip it. Play it in AH.
-SW

[Citabria]

no one bothered to film themselves missing to see where their bullets went instead of on the target other than aksw?

 

perhaps you should ask pyro if the shvak 20mm and mg151 20mm got switched between the la7 and 190d9?

anyone having trouble hitting with the la7 btw?  

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 04-19-2001).]

[Toad]

SW,

I can't get the link to work. I'd like to watch that film tho.

Thx.