Author Topic: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene  (Read 7653 times)

Offline saantana

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2010, 05:42:42 PM »

 :furious

-Penguin

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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2010, 07:01:07 PM »
Moray, are you not seeing the contradictions of your own words...or are you just parroting someone else? There is not a single known life form on this planet that has reached a point where it cannot evolve any further. Your shark example is off too...there are a large number of shark species...each unique and separate...and none of which is exactly as it was in any previous geologic period. You shouldn't use the Tuatara as an example either...there are only 2 separate species and it's believed they haven't changed in 225 million years...and it was erroneously categorized a lizard, just one of the many mistakes made by science.

But I wouldn't expect someone like yourself to notice or acknowledge scientific mistakes.


Correct sir...the evolutionary process like the expansion of the universe is a constant...as each generation reproduces, especially when reproduction involves mixed species...it moves one step closer to the next step in its evolution...where the flaw in the theory comes in is when it states that a life form can change from one phylum to another or from one class to another.

It's just too easy.
http://www.livescience.com/animals/080326-fastest-tuatara.html
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2008/03/living-dinosaur-found-to-be-fastest-evolving-creature.ars
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23812858/
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Fastest-Evolving-Animal-Tuatara-81348.shtml
http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Tuatara_The_Fastest_Evolving_Animal_999.html

Quote
In a study of New Zealand's "living dinosaur" the tuatara, evolutionary biologist, and ancient DNA expert, Professor David Lambert and his team from the Allan Wilson Centre for Molecular Ecology and Evolution recovered DNA sequences from the bones of ancient tuatara, which are up to 8000 years old.

They found that, although tuatara have remained largely physically unchanged over very long periods of evolution, they are evolving - at a DNA level - faster than any other animal yet examined. The research will be published in the March issue of Trends in Genetics
.

It's as easy as googling it, gyrene.  The tuatara is the fastest evolving creature studied.  End of story.

AND AGAIN... EVOLUTION IS NOT A PHYSICAL CONSTANT.  It has no set value.  Where did you get this bunk?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 07:22:00 PM by MORAY37 »
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2010, 08:21:53 PM »
Like Moray said on species, this stuff takes a long time, and many generations.  It also requires separation from the other members of the species, otherwise the genetic changes will be lost.
No it doesn't...diluted or made dormant maybe, but not lost.


It also seems that you haven't been doing your Social Studies homework, since you forgot to notice that the post was referring to humans after an Ice Age. 

-Penguin
No idea what you're referring to there. Just for the record, I never speak from ignorance or limited sources of information...i.e. only one side.





It's just too easy.
http://www.livescience.com/animals/080326-fastest-tuatara.html
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2008/03/living-dinosaur-found-to-be-fastest-evolving-creature.ars
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23812858/
http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Fastest-Evolving-Animal-Tuatara-81348.shtml
http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Tuatara_The_Fastest_Evolving_Animal_999.html

It's as easy as googling it, gyrene.  The tuatara is the fastest evolving creature studied.  End of story.

AND AGAIN... EVOLUTION IS NOT A PHYSICAL CONSTANT.  It has no set value.  Where did you get this bunk?
Ok so wait...you say the tuatara is the fastest evolving creature studied, then you say evolution is not a physical constant?
Quote
In fact, at the DNA level, they evolve extremely quickly, which supports a hypothesis proposed by the evolutionary biologist Allan Wilson, who suggested that the rate of molecular evolution was uncoupled from the rate of morphological evolution," said Lambert.
Physically on the outside the tuatara hasn't changed, but at the DNA level it's evolving very fast...and as such it is and has been "evolving" during its entire existence...as are all other life forms...which means the process of evolution is constant in all life forms, regardless of how fast it occurs. You don't need a PhD to understand that.


You don't follow John Hawks PhD. do you? He's a paleoanthropologist that says his research shows humans are still evolving in spite of contrary research by Steve Jones PhD. professor of genetics at University College of London...I wonder which one is the crackpot?

Speaking of crackpots, I read this article in original print: Intelligent Design? Natural History Magazine
I pretty much agree with the people who have the (EVO) behind their names with some minor exceptions...there is some concept of truth in the research of the (ID) proponents but they went off the track.
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #78 on: April 29, 2010, 08:43:29 PM »
No it doesn't...diluted or made dormant maybe, but not lost.

No idea what you're referring to there. Just for the record, I never speak from ignorance or limited sources of information...i.e. only one side.




Ok so wait...you say the tuatara is the fastest evolving creature studied, then you say evolution is not a physical constant? Physically on the outside the tuatara hasn't changed, but at the DNA level it's evolving very fast...and as such it is and has been "evolving" during its entire existence...as are all other life forms...which means the process of evolution is constant in all life forms, regardless of how fast it occurs. You don't need a PhD to understand that.


You don't follow John Hawks PhD. do you? He's a paleoanthropologist that says his research shows humans are still evolving in spite of contrary research by Steve Jones PhD. professor of genetics at University College of London...I wonder which one is the crackpot?

Speaking of crackpots, I read this article in original print: Intelligent Design? Natural History Magazine
I pretty much agree with the people who have the (EVO) behind their names with some minor exceptions...there is some concept of truth in the research of the (ID) proponents but they went off the track.

EVOLUTION DOES NOT MOVE AT A CONSTANT PACE.  It is not the speed of light.  It can stop (dead -end), start, slow down and speed up. Your use of the word "constant" is completely off.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 08:47:20 PM by MORAY37 »
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
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Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2010, 12:55:43 AM »
Moray  I think you are misunderstading my question.   I am not asking about time.  I am asking(how many?)    Does evolution work on the total number of say 'fish' on the planet at what ever the given time is?   and .....These have to be random genetic mutations. Is that correct?
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Offline Angus

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2010, 03:11:03 AM »
The answer is.....butterflies living near to a coal industry area in ....19th century England?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline bozon

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2010, 06:50:04 AM »
Well considering the fact that science claims the earth formed somewhere in the range of 4.5 billion years ago...it would be difficult for any life to have started on this planet trillions of years in the past. Of course, those numbers have changed throughout known scientific history.
Good question on the fuse by the way...I'm waiting for them to show how a singular mass smaller than the moon could produce a vast amount of debris without other masses and or matter to interact with. The latest "revision" is that something along the lines of a black hole turned itself inside out and expanded rather than contract...which created our universe...but they don't know exactly what it was or what caused it to do what it did. We'll have to wait for the next "revision".
About the fuse I answered this in the previous page. I have no idea what moon you are talking about or where you picked up the inverted black hole thing.
The big bang before the nucleosynthesis started is still in the realm of wild theories. By that I mean theories that cannot be proven of disproved in the scientific sense (as opposed to the mathematical sense). A theory that explain what we already know is a good speculation, but if this theory predict something new and we are able to measure it, then the theory becomes credible as scientific "truth". The over hyped string theory showed a lot of promise by being able to explain many known things, but so far failed to produce any new prediction that was verified.

The cosmological model has a few gaping holes in it. Not all details are known, exactly like Darwin did not know about DNA when he thought about evolution - that hole was plugged much later, but the basis of the theory remained. However, the cosmological model was able not only explain all previous observations within the other standard theories of relativity and quantum fields, but also produce predictions that were measured later. The statistics of the fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background were predicted as well as the existence of the background itself. There are more.

Quote
That's the part I love...  :lol ...and people will stand on the highest mountain to shout that it is all indisputable fact...until the next theory arises. But not one of them will admit they were wrong in backing the previous theory...it's like listening to all the doomsday people, but those people are crazies and cultists.  :rolleyes:
So answer me this: is Newton's mechanic wrong?
Technically it is wrong. We now have relativistic mechanics and quantum mechanics, yet designers of planes and even spaceships still insist on using Newtonian mechanics for some reason. Scientifically it is a valid theory - it gives excellent predictions if one limits himself to the appropriate parameter space and required accuracy.


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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2010, 07:52:09 AM »
So answer me this: is Newton's mechanic wrong?
Technically it is wrong. We now have relativistic mechanics and quantum mechanics, yet designers of planes and even spaceships still insist on using Newtonian mechanics for some reason. Scientifically it is a valid theory - it gives excellent predictions if one limits himself to the appropriate parameter space and required accuracy.

this guy gets science :aok

I'm uncomfortable with people using the concept of proof, its appropriate for formal logic or mathematics but is an impossible goal for empirical science. scientific theories arent either true or false (they would be theroems if they could be proved,) they are merely tools we can use to predict or explain observed phenomena. as such they arent either true or false, but they are on a sliding scale of usefulness depending on their application.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2010, 09:41:15 AM »
EVOLUTION DOES NOT MOVE AT A CONSTANT PACE.  It is not the speed of light.  It can stop (dead -end), start, slow down and speed up. Your use of the word "constant" is completely off.
Come on Moray...you can't be serious...grammatical semantics? OK, to ease your mind, let's use the word continuous...the process of evolution is "continuous" in all life forms on the planet earth. You previously claimed evolution occurs when it must...you also claim it is not continuous...science is showing the only time a life form stops evolving is when it goes extinct...the process is continuously occurring at the microbiological level...think immune system.




About the fuse I answered this in the previous page. I have no idea what moon you are talking about or where you picked up the inverted black hole thing.
You mean this?

You suggest a defined moment of "beginning". There was no beginning because there was no time before the big bang - or at least any information about what was before (e.g. the pulsating universe option that lost favor in recent decades) was erased, cleared and started from the same condition including time itself.
According to some current theories, there was a single moment...somewhere between 12 and 15 billion years in the past (depending on who posted the theory)...of course there are a thousand different interpretations of the theory, and it is being revised as new discoveries are examined...but the one thing that hasn't changed is the beginning event, an explosion...Stephen Hawking is thinking that the answer lies within black holes (who incidentally is the first scientist I have ever heard of to admit one of his theories was wrong)...the theory posted on NASA's site claims an object just a few millimeters across held all the mass within the visible universe.

And the beat goes on...


The big bang before the nucleosynthesis started is still in the realm of wild theories. By that I mean theories that cannot be proven of disproved in the scientific sense (as opposed to the mathematical sense). A theory that explain what we already know is a good speculation, but if this theory predict something new and we are able to measure it, then the theory becomes credible as scientific "truth". The over hyped string theory showed a lot of promise by being able to explain many known things, but so far failed to produce any new prediction that was verified.

The cosmological model has a few gaping holes in it. Not all details are known, exactly like Darwin did not know about DNA when he thought about evolution - that hole was plugged much later, but the basis of the theory remained. However, the cosmological model was able not only explain all previous observations within the other standard theories of relativity and quantum fields, but also produce predictions that were measured later. The statistics of the fluctuations in the cosmic microwave background were predicted as well as the existence of the background itself. There are more.
Can't argue with that.


So answer me this: is Newton's mechanic wrong?
Technically it is wrong. We now have relativistic mechanics and quantum mechanics, yet designers of planes and even spaceships still insist on using Newtonian mechanics for some reason. Scientifically it is a valid theory - it gives excellent predictions if one limits himself to the appropriate parameter space and required accuracy.
You must be talking about classical mechanics which is derived from Newton's laws...I understood it to be predictive physics theory...not sure about relativistic mechanics but quantum mechanics is a purely theoretical science that looks at things on the atomic level.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2010, 10:34:57 AM »
I was not joking about the butterflies....a species of them became easy prey for their enemies in industrial 19th century England, since their habitat was on tree-trunks in the same colour as the butterflies themselves.
Anyway, coal and soot made the trunks black, so the butterflies were easily spotted...
Untill....they were also black. A little quirk of genetic behaviour made some black ones...probably always so, and all of a sudden their life expectancy went from being a nice food spot on a blond tree-trunk into becoming an invisible creature on a sooted trunk.
C'est la vie....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2010, 10:35:25 AM »
You must be talking about classical mechanics which is derived from Newton's laws...I understood it to be predictive physics theory...not sure about relativistic mechanics but quantum mechanics is a purely theoretical science that looks at things on the atomic level.

classical mechanics (newton) / relativity (einstein) / quantum mechanics (bohr/heisenberg).

3 different paradigms, none proven, all useful.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2010, 10:46:49 AM »
classical mechanics (newton) / relativity (einstein) / quantum mechanics (bohr/heisenberg).

3 different paradigms, none proven, all useful.
Agreed.



I was not joking about the butterflies....a species of them became easy prey for their enemies in industrial 19th century England, since their habitat was on tree-trunks in the same colour as the butterflies themselves.
Anyway, coal and soot made the trunks black, so the butterflies were easily spotted...
Untill....they were also black. A little quirk of genetic behaviour made some black ones...probably always so, and all of a sudden their life expectancy went from being a nice food spot on a blond tree-trunk into becoming an invisible creature on a sooted trunk.
C'est la vie....
That's very interesting Angus...amazing how quickly insects can adapt to environmental change.
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Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline palef

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2010, 10:56:10 AM »
this guy gets science :aok

I'm uncomfortable with people using the concept of proof, its appropriate for formal logic or mathematics but is an impossible goal for empirical science. scientific theories arent either true or false (they would be theroems if they could be proved,) they are merely tools we can use to predict or explain observed phenomena. as such they arent either true or false, but they are on a sliding scale of usefulness depending on their application.

Which begs the question: If no one has observed anyone else's imaginary friend can we use the sliding scale of usefulness model to explain their potential existence based on how heated the arguments are from each proponent of a particular imaginary friend?
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Offline FireDrgn

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2010, 12:23:53 PM »
this guy gets science :aok

I'm uncomfortable with people using the concept of proof, its appropriate for formal logic or mathematics but is an impossible goal for empirical science. scientific theories arent either true or false (they would be theroems if they could be proved,) they are merely tools we can use to predict or explain observed phenomena. as such they arent either true or false, but they are on a sliding scale of usefulness depending on their application.


I would like an invitation to discuss this with you Holmes. Not really wanting to hijack the thread.  Let me know what is appropriate.

<S>
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Debate: Penguin vs Gyrene
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2010, 12:38:01 PM »
I would like an invitation to discuss this with you Holmes. Not really wanting to hijack the thread.  Let me know what is appropriate.

<S>
Go ahead and do it here guys...as long as we're all able to discuss things like adults, science is science.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett