Pick discussion

[CAP1]

Are you a coyote?

thankfully i wasn't drinking anything.  

now the bigger question..........is he a soooooper geeeeenius?

[Guppy35]

Here how I have come to be as a player of this game since I started in regards to this:

1.  Didn't know that I didn't "get it."
2.  Started to realize that I didn't "get it."
3.  Pretended to "get it", and attempted to "get it" by performing the actions of those who did "get it".
4.  Didn't have fun "getting it".
5.  Realized that "getting it" isn't actually getting anything at all other than being killed endlessly by newbs, which is not fun.
6.  Decided that "getting it" is doing whatever you want to have fun.
7.  Learned personally, that "getting it" is killing as many bad guys as I can without being killed by them.

All it means is you unlearned it Grizz.

I don't suppose you remember the first time we fought cartoon airplanes way back when do you?  If you take the time to finish reading this, you'll understand why I do.

You were a 38 dweeb in a squad that was known at the time for nothing but ganging, hording, picking, and excuse making.   You were floating above the furball picking, when Zap, Pawz and I wandered in low in the old 38s.  Pawz got ya and you came on 200 whining about Pawz HO'ing you and getting ganged etc.  Pawz hadn't but it was the usual excuse of someone who was too worried about his score, landing his kills and proving he was a cartoon airplane hero. 

I PM'd you and said relax, we're just looking for a good fight.  You didn't buy it initially but then you seemed to notice we weren't picking you, weren't HO'ing you and we weren't ganging you.  I then suggested we move it north for some co-alt 1 v 1 stuff.  You hesitated but then you agreed and we had some good fights, 38G to your 38J.  I got you the first time and then we had two in a row where we collided and had a good laugh.  I had to leave after that but I believe those fights continued 1 v 1 with Zap and Pawz.  You seemed to have relaxed and enjoyed the fights as you figured out we meant what we said in that we were just having fun.

Now for the reason I remember.  Right after this your name came up in a discussion in the DFC forum.  At that point I was involved with it.  Guys, some who wear the same squad tag as you now, were saying you were essentially all of what I posted above.  At that point I jumped in and explained that it was not the case in my opinion.  After talking to you that night I said that you seemed to want to learn the ACM stuff, that you seemed like a good guy and that you were looking for the fight more then the name in lights.  I told them you had a chance to be a really good stick too if I remember right.  I'm sure the thread is still there way back in the DFC forum if you'd like to check.  I also invited you into SAPP as you were a 38 dweeb at the time.  You knew then what the 38 guys were about as it's written very clearly and sticky'd there.

Not too long afterwards you ended up in the Muppets.  I remember asking one of them at the time how that happened as you seemed to be on their #$#@ list.  Seems like the story at the time was you telling them it was all an act and that you really did get it.

And now as your list describes you are back to where you started.  Terribly ironic to me and I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in myself as generally I feel like I can read people better then in this case.

The other irony to me is the D-11 and P39D driver I mentioned previously is a member of your old squad.  And there he was, flying and dying on the deck for the fun of the fight.  Seems like he gets it.

But you are right.  Fly it the way you want to have fun.  Your approach belongs to you.  Your approach and mine will never be the same clearly.  There is no right way.  Both do have an impact on the game however.

Sunbat you taking notes?  I'll await your commentary.

[CAP1]

All it means is you unlearned it Grizz.

I don't suppose you remember the first time we fought cartoon airplanes way back when do you?  If you take the time to finish reading this, you'll understand why I do.

You were a 38 dweeb in a squad that was known at the time for nothing but ganging, hording, picking, and excuse making.   You were floating above the furball picking, when Zap, Pawz and I wandered in low in the old 38s.  Pawz got ya and you came on 200 whining about Pawz HO'ing you and getting ganged etc.  Pawz hadn't but it was the usual excuse of someone who was too worried about his score, landing his kills and proving he was a cartoon airplane hero. 

I PM'd you and said relax, we're just looking for a good fight.  You didn't buy it initially but then you seemed to notice we weren't picking you, weren't HO'ing you and we weren't ganging you.  I then suggested we move it north for some co-alt 1 v 1 stuff.  You hesitated but then you agreed and we had some good fights, 38G to your 38J.  I got you the first time and then we had two in a row where we collided and had a good laugh.  I had to leave after that but I believe those fights continued 1 v 1 with Zap and Pawz.  You seemed to have relaxed and enjoyed the fights as you figured out we meant what we said in that we were just having fun.

Now for the reason I remember.  Right after this your name came up in a discussion in the DFC forum.  At that point I was involved with it.  Guys, some who wear the same squad tag as you now, were saying you were essentially all of what I posted above.  At that point I jumped in and explained that it was not the case in my opinion.  After talking to you that night I said that you seemed to want to learn the ACM stuff, that you seemed like a good guy and that you were looking for the fight more then the name in lights.  I told them you had a chance to be a really good stick too if I remember right.  I'm sure the thread is still there way back in the DFC forum if you'd like to check.  I also invited you into SAPP as you were a 38 dweeb at the time.  You knew then what the 38 guys were about as it's written very clearly and sticky'd there.

Not too long afterwards you ended up in the Muppets.  I remember asking one of them at the time how that happened as you seemed to be on their #$#@ list.  Seems like the story at the time was you telling them it was all an act and that you really did get it.

And now as your list describes you are back to where you started.  Terribly ironic to me and I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in myself as generally I feel like I can read people better then in this case.

The other irony to me is the D-11 and P39D driver I mentioned previously is a member of your old squad.  And there he was, flying and dying on the deck for the fun of the fight.  Seems like he gets it.

But you are right.  Fly it the way you want to have fun.  Your approach belongs to you.  Your approach and mine will never be the same clearly.  There is no right way.  Both do have an impact on the game however.

Sunbat you taking notes?  I'll await your commentary.

who are you, and what did you do with guppy?

[grizz441]

All it means is you unlearned it Grizz.

I don't suppose you remember the first time we fought cartoon airplanes way back when do you?  If you take the time to finish reading this, you'll understand why I do.

You were a 38 dweeb in a squad that was known at the time for nothing but ganging, hording, picking, and excuse making.   You were floating above the furball picking, when Zap, Pawz and I wandered in low in the old 38s.  Pawz got ya and you came on 200 whining about Pawz HO'ing you and getting ganged etc.  Pawz hadn't but it was the usual excuse of someone who was too worried about his score, landing his kills and proving he was a cartoon airplane hero. 

I PM'd you and said relax, we're just looking for a good fight.  You didn't buy it initially but then you seemed to notice we weren't picking you, weren't HO'ing you and we weren't ganging you.  I then suggested we move it north for some co-alt 1 v 1 stuff.  You hesitated but then you agreed and we had some good fights, 38G to your 38J.  I got you the first time and then we had two in a row where we collided and had a good laugh.  I had to leave after that but I believe those fights continued 1 v 1 with Zap and Pawz.  You seemed to have relaxed and enjoyed the fights as you figured out we meant what we said in that we were just having fun.

Fairly accurate account of history, yep.  I actually played a couple tours where all I did was fly low and mindlessly furball, completely devoid of my surroundings, and got killed most of the time.  It was fun for a little while, but I got tired of getting picked, dying continuously, and spending most of my time flying to a fight on autopilot (To each their own).  Now I fly my style, which is aggro and going for maximum lethality while minimizing death.  The picture you paint of me is misleading, implying that I'm a timid picker, when in actuality I use every tool I have in my tool box, which includes picking, fighting outnumbered, clawing my way out of precarious situations, fighting any 1v1 I can get lucky enough to find, pretty much anything.  It's a lot of fun to put the entire package together to become a good dogfighter.  You should try it, your squaddies certainly do when you aren't online.

Now for the reason I remember.  Right after this your name came up in a discussion in the DFC forum.  At that point I was involved with it.  Guys, some who wear the same squad tag as you now, were saying you were essentially all of what I posted above.  At that point I jumped in and explained that it was not the case in my opinion.  After talking to you that night I said that you seemed to want to learn the ACM stuff, that you seemed like a good guy and that you were looking for the fight more then the name in lights.  I told them you had a chance to be a really good stick too if I remember right.  I'm sure the thread is still there way back in the DFC forum if you'd like to check.  I also invited you into SAPP as you were a 38 dweeb at the time.  You knew then what the 38 guys were about as it's written very clearly and sticky'd there.

Not too long afterwards you ended up in the Muppets.  I remember asking one of them at the time how that happened as you seemed to be on their #$#@ list.  Seems like the story at the time was you telling them it was all an act and that you really did get it.

The Muppets were never a squadron that flew around on the deck getting killed endlessly by gangs of bad guys.  Granted there have been plenty of members that enjoy doing that and all the power to them, but the squadron was never about that.  I have actually been told by older muppets that the way I approach the game is almost identical to how Fester, one of the founders did.  Going for kill streaks, high Kill/death ratios, flying jets on the deck w/kappa (The original founder), k4ing, tater aiming, etc.  Although, I will admit at the time I joined the muppets, the squadron had taken on the identity of being a squadron that flew around on the deck getting killed by gangs and then talking serious smack (whining perhaps?) on 200. 

As for DFC?  A hearty, apathetic yawwwnnnnn for that affiliation.

And now as your list describes you are back to where you started.  Terribly ironic to me and I must admit I'm a bit disappointed in myself as generally I feel like I can read people better then in this case.

Where I started, I was a timid picker with a limited tool box.  There were many types of situations that I got myself into where my only recourse was running.  After logging literally thousands of duels (many more than you I'm sure), fighting a few tours at significant disadvantage, and learning tater planes, I was able to take my game to another level.  So I would hardly say I am back to where I started.  I personally feel I am two times the cartoon pilot I was 2 years ago. 

There's much more to the game than aimlessly flying around and turning in circles regardless of the situation.  I could write a dang book on being an effective MA fighter.  The aspect of the game you enjoy would be only one chapter of it.

[Letalis]

I see 3 basic groups pretty well represented: (Apologies in advance if this is an incorrect generalization)

1. Good timers= Get in the furball already and have a good time because it's a game. (Corky)
2. History nuts/realists= I'm going to fly my sentimental favorites and try to fly in a manner that gets me home. (Me)
3. Be the besters= What's the point of playing if you're not in it to win? Winning = fun. (Grizz)

Best part is, I think a lot of folks can fit squarely in any of the 3 categories at a different point in time.
Exact definitions of a "good time" seem to vary as much as the personalities involved. Do I think the game would generally be more fun if everyone had Corky's approach? No doubt whatsoever in my mind.
Can anyone really care about being "the best" or even achieving a personal (statistical) best in that scenario though? Not so much. There is something to be said for competition, and I doubt this debate would carry the current fervor if either side had any intent of leaving the game. We all come back for more  

Break Break

I remember looking down and watching Grizz defend a de-acked airfield a few months back amidst 4 to 1 odds.  (About 20 greens with alt vs 3-5 reds at a given time)  His k4 was hunting and evading beautifully. My squaddie Doolittle wanted a Grizz scalp bad and made 5-6 passes without doing anything but losing ammo and patience.  I made a single pass and missed before moving on to easier prey/giving Doo more chances.  Grizz landed 7 kills in 5-7 minutes despite flying out of a vulched field, never breaking 3k feet and 4:1 odds.  It was the best display of SA I've ever seen in this game. Even you wudda been proud Corky:)

[Guppy35]

The best SA guys to play the game, no longer play sad to say.  But it's irrelevant to the discussion.  This isn't a furball vs other style discussion.  Getting it, in my mind is understanding there is a community of players here and we all have an impact on the game by how we interact with the game.

Dedelos, myself and some others were responding that in many people's minds it's lousy to drop in on a fight that someone else is having without asking first.  No one proclaimed it as the only way.  As one who likes to think the other guy is trying to have fun too, I tend to ask first.  That's my style.  If I see a guy shot up and don't shoot him, or let a guy ditch and fly on by, that's my choice. 

As for guys wanting to be the greatest cartoon pilot who ever lived.  Go for it.  I took my shot my second year in Airwarrior which would be 1998.  Worked my tail off, flew countless hours, got the wife mad at me for the one and only time in the marriage, and frankly was a pretty good stick.  Didn't have nearly as much fun though and grew out of it.  That being said, I'd like to believe I can still give folks a good fight.

Grizz, as for using every tool in the tool box.  Been there, done that.  I don't have the cartoon flying time to put into it anymore.  Doesn't mean I don't know how.  After this many years of cartoon flying, the friendships and the good fights are far more valuable to me.  I'd also like to think that trying to pass on the best of the game to the new folks is a responsibility that us old timers have.  I sure know that folks passed it on to me, and I'd like to think they taught me well.

The bottom line for the whole discussion to me is folks need to remember that other players are out to have fun too.  Some have limited time to play, others much more.  Could be that guy whose kill you picked was in his one and only decent fight of the week.  Wouldn't kill you to ask first.  And in the end it's the people you get to know and the friendships you make that keep the game worthwhile.  I've gotten to know lots of good folks in the last 14 years.  Respecting the people in how you approach the game is part of that in my mind.

[grizz441]

The bottom line for the whole discussion to me is folks need to remember that other players are out to have fun too.  Some have limited time to play, others much more.  Could be that guy whose kill you picked was in his one and only decent fight of the week.  Wouldn't kill you to ask first.  And in the end it's the people you get to know and the friendships you make that keep the game worthwhile.  I've gotten to know lots of good folks in the last 14 years.  Respecting the people in how you approach the game is part of that in my mind.

I never said that I go around clearing my friendlies 12's, but I did say that a true isolated 1v1 is rare.  I don't go out of my way to kill bogeys that others have saddled, but sometimes I am slashing through a swarm and an angle develops on a bogey.  I take it everytime.  Was an ally on him?  I don't know, who cares, it's a furball.  When I see a good lookin 1v1 in the middle of nowhere I'm not going to swoop in and pick the guy, that's just common sense.  I always ask when it is reasonable to do so.  

As for your other points, I do my part to help the community too.  I help players that ask for help, post in the help and training, and even send films to those that politely ask.  The help I give is to become a better cartoon pilot, which hopefully will create more fun for those that give the effort.

[Guppy35]

Good, then we agree on what's important.

[Vinkman]

well wiley i tell you what, you are free to boom in and pick my opponent in a 1v1 without so much as a by your leave and i am free to make it a point to hound you for the rest of the night.

ever tried to shoot at someone when a friendly makes it a point to spend all his time blocking your shots? booming in between you and your intended victim just as your firing can be rather comical......well not for you, but for me and every person that gets your proxies its a hell of a laugh! especially when i keep claiming your kill on 200.

kill shooter can be such a useful tool when trying to teach countrymen a lesson.

and in case you are doubting my willingness to be that dweebish, i have done this before to killstealing A&#*Y^&S who cant mind their own business. so if you wanna say its my $15.00 and ill play as i chose....well remember i pay my $15.00, too and i can play as i want to also.

oh, and by the by those scenarios you described above, well they all sound like it was a furball likely from a base attack/defence going on and the pick you chose to take from your perch was in the middle alt of it. now as i recall everyone thus far agrees that in a the mix of a furball base attack/defence then all is fair.

in case you were describing multiple individuals flying and fighting and minding their own business having fun......well ain't you just the greatest team player by butting in and jacking kills from those who put in the work without asking or being asked by the people who are having fun. how rude of them to be having fun without you! without even inviting you!!!!!

All Ded and others have asked for is some respect and common courtesy from others, and have explained their own personal standards of play. if you chose to play in a different manner then that is your choice to make, do as you want. but dont be surprised when people who have played this game for a long time regard you as a tard and ignore your presence when you are near them in the MA's.

Well said.

[Vinkman]

Okay, let's start here.  I realize it's simple to say 'well, you should leave the 1v1 be' and it sounds all good and polite and honorable, but let's look at the mechanics of this.  Let's take two different scenarios that could occur from this simple statement.

Scenario 1-  I happen upon a friendly in a 1v1.  I'm within 1k alt either way, I'm cruising at speed.  There's another bandit headed in the general direction of the 1v1.  He's also co-alt, cruising at speed.  It's fairly clear-cut at this point, right?  I engage the second con.  We both have our 1v1.  Everything's fairsies, everybody's happy, right?  At least until somebody gets shot down, now there's a 2v1.  Or, if the second bandit is treating it now as a 2v2 and trying to bag the friendly, who is being dragged by the bandit he's in the 1v1 with.

Scenario 2- I happen upon a friendly in a 1v1.  The center of their engagement is a couple thousand feet above me, maybe a bit more.  Their vertical maneuvers generally put them low enough that if I maneuvered properly, I could take a shot.  Without too much trouble, the bandit in the 1v1 could set up for me and take a shot on the way by.  There's another bandit headed in the general direction of the 1v1 from the opposite side of the two engaged planes.  He's co-alt with me.

Why am I expected to put myself at a disadvantage to the bandit that's engaged in the 1v1 and hope (probably vainly) he doesn't capitalize on me going by on the way to the second con?  Typically now you're engaged in a 2v2, not a couple of 1v1s.  If the two bandits fight it as a 2v2 instead of a 1v1, either me or the friendly is going to get saddled up on and creamed.

Should I respect the 1v1 and pull off, and let the friendly whine on 200 about how he was picked by the second bandit?  And/Or get pissy because I 'hung him out to dry' because I left him to his 1v1?  This is also assuming perfect SA.  Maybe I was moving into the area away from an unfriendly horde that's headed this way 6k behind me, and my attention's split, so all I see is two enemies, one friendly in front of me.  There's a freaking legion of other possibilities here, and we're only looking at a scenario with 4 planes all off by their lonesome.

Okay, what if I keep my distance and go around and the second bandit comes straight in on the friendly to saddle up?  Because I was trying to be polite and respect the 1v1, I'm out of position to save the poor schmuck and he gets pissy because I hung him out to dry.

I'm sorry, but if there's more than the 2 of you within icon range, I just don't think it's feasible to have the expectation that everybody on the battlefield clears out of your way like the main fight scene in a movie.

It's not that it comes up that often, because frankly the arena doesn't work this way.  There's the 'if it's red, it's dead' mentality, and I think the majority works in that framework.  My point is, if just one guy in that 2v2 or 3v3 say, 'Guys, leave the 109 alone, he's MINE ALL MINE!' and his fight is not 10,000 feet below the rest of you, why is it suddenly up to all the rest of you to concede to his wishes, when the bandits might not be playing by the same set of rules, and you have no way of figuring that out other than by their actions, and the fact that things happen so quickly in this game, they can take advantage of a couple seconds of decision making on your part to leap in and drill the friendly who you're leaving to do his thing.  And more often than not, now the guy's whining on country because nobody called his six.

Never mind the fact that it's now taxing your SA to be in the middle of a multiple-con dogfight and go 'Oh, that's his 109 that he's declared as MINE ALL MINE and I'm not supposed to engage it. *dodge the con I'm currently engaged with*  Hmm... the 109 seems to be saddling up on me OH F-' 'You have been shot down by the 109 that was MINE ALL MINE.'

It seems to me that the duelist advocates are one of two things-  Either your SA is so poor, you can only handle interacting with one con at once or your SA is so freaking off the charts awesome, that you can manage to keep track of your 1v1 when there are ten other planes in the area.  The rest of us may not have that capability.  Rudimentary IFF might be all the other people around you are capable of in a multiple on multiple engagement.

I know for myself, I get overwhelmed if there's more than 2 bandits interacting with me.  And that's on a good day, and assuming they're not working together all that well.

Just to be clear, I agree, coming in from 10k higher to pick the only available bandit from in front of a friendly is dweebery.  No argument there.  But when other planes start to appear on the horizon, I think some people have unreasonable expectations of the people around them as far as SA and the fact that a moving battle is rolling right over top of your designated 1v1 space.

Wiley.

So much to think about. I realize that when your trying to fugure out what you should do it is very difficult at those ranges to see the hand signals you are making to communicate with your countryman to understand what they  might expect from you, not to mention how hard it is to fly with your hands off the controls, especially when attempting the hand signals that require two hands. Protocall is to rock your wings to signal to friendies that you are about to engage in a hand signal gesture. Then turn 90 deg to the friendly so that a clear view can be obtains through the side cockpit glass. Now the hand signal for asking if the friendly needs help....

Oh wait, there's a RADIO in the plane!

Wily - "Flotsom, you good with K4?"
Flotsom - "Yep"
Wily - "High spit. I'm on him"
Flotsom - "K4 down, it was Vinkman he sucks. Got the Spit?"
Wily - "think so."
Flotsom "Grabbin."

What did that take 4 seconds?   

You can make it sound more complicated than it is, so you have an excuse to do what you want, but many won't buy it. 

[Shuffler]

Yup.  And do you conduct yourself as though the guy in front of you will not let the door close in your face at all times?  If you do, just how often do you break your nose on closing doors?

Expecting everyone to play by your own self-imposed rules is delusional at best.

Wiley.

I don't expect everyone is the same. That is why I said "many don't". I'll grab a door someone else let go in someone elses face if I can. It's just who I am and how I was raised.

While most all folks like to think they are upstanding...... in reality they are not. You are free to chose your own level in any group.

If some folks point out something your doing and you are doing it.......

Good luck with that.

No one is saying you can't do what you do.... it's just who you are........... It is a "GAME" just have fun doing it and let things fall as they may.

[Shuffler]

(Image removed from quote.)

Who decides whats right or wrong Shuffler is it you? Is it Dedalos? Where is the aces high etiquette manual? Who wrote this manual? Why should we follow this line of thinking? What is gained from following a certain set of "rules" in a video game? Oh pray tell shuffler. Lead us boorish un-washed masses from the way of darkness to the way of light. Be our Sherpa of the Everest that is Aces High.

Aww come on kilo...... it only looks high from your standpoint.

[Shuffler]

           
I see the parallels now!  Anyone who picks, tries to stay alive,  and plays the game in what you consider to be unfair and dweeby, is probably a hooligan in real life.  Oh my god my side hurts, thanks for that laugh Shuffles.  

The greatest irony of it all is that you are commonly observed flying in exactly the same dweeby style that you bleed your heart against here on the bbs.

This sounds just like the folks in our prisons.       You are who you are no matter where that may be.

[Shuffler]

Yep. Hasn't been a fortnight since I got vulched by Shuffler himself. Hmmm...

If you were, that was an extremely rare occasion. If I was shooting ack guns and you present yourself I may fire. More often than that ever happening I may let your smoking damaged plane return without further harrassment from a good fight. Even calling off others if they are looking to get you.

[Wiley]

now the bigger question..........is he a soooooper geeeeenius?

Of course, it says so on my card.   

Wiley.