Beating a dead horse

[Urchin]

This is just a bump ,really.  Still seeing Nikis as at least half the planes I see... it is getting pretty whoopee irritating.  Thats it.

[Ozark]

This dead horse stinks!
Let's at least get a fresh horse.

<<<Let's go out to the lobby....let's go out to the lobby....let's go out to the lobby and have our self a treat!>>>

OK...fresh horse here....beat it to death again.

[Nash]

Urchin, I don't know what you expect really... other than to see less nikis in the arena. But you and I have talked a little bit about engaging these (as from my observations you aren't seeing and understanding what's happening very well, yet).

I know this is yer first online flight sim... so I would strongly suggest that you avail yourself of the myriad of resources out there to help you with your tactics, as I'm sure 99% of us have done at one time or another. They are all over the net. There are also some great AH trainers, it's a free resource to everyone, and well worth the time.

This is in no way meant to be offending... Just trying to help. Bump your flying and SA up a notch and perhaps nikis or any other plane won't give you such a hard time. Additionally you might have better luck expressing what exactly it *is* that is giving you such a headache.

Btw, imho you picked a worthy title for this thread. Why bump it with nothing to add?

[Urchin]

Nash, you are absolutely correct about my lack of SA.  I generally have decent SA until I get on someones 6, at which point I generally concentrate on staying there and hope that a countryman will give me a "check 6" if I attract the attention of a bad guy.  Sometimes, they even do it.  

About my flying- I honestly consider myself a pretty good pilot.  I make bad decisions sometimes, but I think I fly pretty well.  Yes, without a doubt I could learn more "ACM", but to be quite honest with you I think I have hit a learning plateau.  I've been playing for 3-4 months now.  I think I have mastered "basic" ACM.  What I have to do now is learn exactly how different planes perform, and the best way to do that is to fly them extensively.  That is sort of the reason I think I am at a plateau, it took me 3 months to learn the ME109, at least to the point where I can generally give any plane (except the Niki) a run for it's money in a fight.  To learn how to exploit all the other planes weaknesses, I think I'm looking at probably about two years to fly all of the planes for a couple tours each.

And Nash, this entire thread is NOT a personal attack on Niki pilots.  I take it as a given that most people are going to take the easiest route to reach their goals.  The Niki is the easiest plane in the arena to get kills in, so many people are going to fly it to achieve their goal, which is getting kills.  You are an extremely competent pilot, and I'm sure you fly could fly every other plane as well as you fly the niki.  Unfortunately, I think you are one of the very few REALLY good pilots flying the niki.  Anyways, I'm basically just saying what I said before.  I've actually come to realize that there is absolutely no point in squeaking about the niki (which is why I don't do it in the MA anymore).  People are going to continue to fly it, until the next "best" thing comes along, at which point it will get dropped quicker than someone fighting Mike Tyson.

[Fatty]

The n1k2 is not the easiest plane in the arena to get kills in (by a good bit), it's simply the easiest plane in the arena to make excuses when killed by.

[Urchin]

Shrug, guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.  Though I am curious, in your opinion what IS the easiest plane to get kills in?

[Fatty]

For me, 109f4, the ultimate in vultched base defense.  Well, that and IL-2.  In general easier than niki are la5, la7, 190a5, spit ix, spit v (and seafire), and 109g2 off the top of my head.

[Nash]

The Tempest comes to mind....  

But seriously, yeah I hear what yer saying Urchin. Never for a second think that you've hit a learning plateau though, as even Drex and alla them AW dos guys will tell you they still haven't (we're talkin' a decade of flying under their belts). But what you're doing is important (learning AC's relative strengths and weaknesses... it's one part of the equation).

You won't find the answers in these kinds of threads though... at least with the way you choose to word things (ie. "my basic stance is that the niki is an easymode plane"). I'm not sure what that means, but by your own definition of things it may be. However, from our engagements you have done things that were just clearly incorrect, and our conversations about them afterwards showed that you misread what was actually going on.

Like you said, it's an SA thing, and it will improve. As cheesy as it may be I do salute you for your attitude. And to get even more cheesy, there is no destination - it's all a journey... the most enjoyable points of which you are now at. Suck it all in and take lots of pictures.  

[AKSWulfe]

I'm not sure what this thread is about. I'm sure I've read some... maybe most.. of it at some point in time.

I read the word "niki", and must comment. It's the N1K2 here. Best way to defeat them is to not play on their terms. Keep a good seperation between you and them, and make sure you manage yourself in the vertical. You will never defeat a N1K2 in a pure sustained turn fight. Unless you are in a Zero, SpitV/SeaFire or a SpitIX very low on gas.

Playing with the N1K2 in his territory (turning with him) or trying to continue your dive past him after you've already dove on him is two of the many foibles a neophyte virtual pilot makes against a N1K2.

They CAN dive. The can NOT roll very fast if they get a lot of speed. Nor can they turn very sharply right away. Your best bet is, if you dive on them to never dive past them but instead level out and fly AWAY from him and eventually work that into altitude again so you can dive on him again. When you are running away from a N1K2 and he is close behind you, roll a few times if he begins to fire a few rounds at you. Extend away and decide your next attack.

I will come up with more ideas tommorrow after I've had some rest.  
-SW

[Urchin]

I thank you for your help in posting tactics to deal with them.  Maybe it is not just the nikis, I seem to go through periods where I fly great, and periods where I kame stupid decisions and can't fly well enough to get myself out of them.  

Actually the most recent example is I went up against 3 tempests 4 times in a row, and got promptly gangbanged every time.  They were kinda making lazy slow circles a few K out from one of our bases, at about 10-12 k feet.  Then they'd dive in 1 by 1, and there was no way to dodge them all.  I'm actually STILL pissed about that.  I'm just glad the X-36 joystick seems to be tougher than the Sidewinder I had, because I gave it a pretty nice toss after the 4th assrape.  

To be honest, I don't even ENJOY flying the german planes anymore.  I upped an La7 tonight and got 4 kills in my first sortie, and 3 in my second.  I didn't do a thing differently then I normally do.  I suppose I'm just not a good enough pilot to be good in the German planes.

[Urchin]

For me, 109f4, the ultimate in vultched base defense. Well, that and IL-2. In general easier than niki are la5, la7, 190a5, spit ix, spit v (and seafire), and 109g2 off the top of my head.  

Hum..  I must salute you, because you are clearly a much superior pilot than me.  I'll go through the list, and share my opinion of the planes.

109F4- nice turning.  Still can't turn with N1k2 (Swulfe   ), spit, or zeke.  Slow.  1 20mm cannon with 150 rounds means you have to be an excellent shot to knock more than one or two people down.  MGs useless.

109G2- still pretty nice turning.  Still can't turn with above planes, add P38 to the list of planes it cant turn with.  This lil guy is actually pretty fast, in my opinion.  You have about a 50/50 shot at getting away from a spit or niki before the cannons shred you.  I've actually had a lot of success with the G2 fighting La7s.  Well, maybe not a lot, but the G2 is a good fight for an la7.  See above for guns.  Adding the 20mm gondolas hurts performance- it is hard to say exactly how much.

190A5- I really do like the 190A5.  It is quick, responsive, and it dives well.  Turning is about middle of the road- if you want to play it safe keep it fast and don't turn much.  It is pretty slow on the deck, marginally faster than the spit9 and niki.  You have about a 50/50 chance of getting away before the cannons shred you.  (I prefer the A8's guns, but that plane is about as useful A2A as a Lanc is, in my opinion.  Well, since we've already decided I'm a toejamty pilot, maybe thats where the problem lies).

Spits- Better turning than a Niki, worse everything else.  A smart niki driver will tear them to shreds, a stupid one will try to turn with them.  Of course, that holds true for LW planes as well.

La5 and La7-  I really like these planes to.  If any plane in the arena can be successful vs. the niki, it is these two.  Turning is pretty good until you get slow, the 2 cannons are outstanding, in my opinion.
Acceleration and climbing are on par with the 109G10, and (for the La7) deck speed is much higher.  I may agree with you that these planes are just as easy to get kills in as the Niki is.  After all, I am a pretty crappy pilot and I am 8 and 2 in the La7 and 17 and 6 in the La5.  I'm only 19 and 10 in the Niki, so I guess I do better in the LA series.  Of course, I do better in all of them than I do in any of the German planes, which I have far more experience in.

[Urchin]

Oh, I forgot.  The above won't mean a thing unless I put in a brief synopsis of how I see the Niki.

So, without further ado

N1K2- Excellent turning.  Can't turn with a Spit or Zero, but anything else is dogmeat.  Excellent acceleration.  Excellent diving and climbing.  Can't beat 4 cannons with 790 rounds for firepower (unless you are talking about the C-Hog, 4 hispanos can).  Rather slow on the deck, it can outrun a 109F4 and has about a 50/50 shot at catching a 109G2.  Oh, almost forgot- Stalls at about 75mph, so it can get tough to rely on zoom climbing to get away.

That just about does it for me, I think.

[Urchin]

And before I hit the sack, here is another thing I forgot to mention.

 

The n1k2 is not the easiest plane in the arena to get kills in (by a good bit), it's simply the easiest plane in the arena to make excuses when killed by.  

How might you explain this?

Model    Kills  Deaths    Kills / Deaths + 1
 
Bf 109F-4 1024   1323            0.7734
Bf 109G-2 1692   1536            1.1008
Fw 190A-5 2904   2554            1.1366
La-5FN     954    953            1.0000
La-7     10121   8368            1.2093
SpitMkIX 13521  13876            0.9743
SpitV     5739   6192            0.9267
SeaFire   3745   4570            0.8193
N1K2     19654  17303            1.1358

This took WAAY to much time to do.  However, know that it is done, I'll ask some questions.  Of the 8 planes that you said were easier to get kills in than the N1K2, 4 don't even have a 1 to 1 kill ratio.  Are those planes easier to die in as well?

I can add up the kills that six of your eight "easy" planes have- and they fall 3,000 kills short of the N1K2's total.  And that is added together.  Have these planes not been "discovered" by the masses yet?

As an aside, I am really astounded to see that the total of the Spit9 and La7 kills are actually more than the N1K2's total.  Granted, individually they both fall well short, but I didn't think the La7 was as common as the Spitfire (I assumed the spit was getting more usage, I tend to see more spits anyway).

Lastly, I want to ask something that appears, well, obvious to me.  Perhaps it is just my "outlook", but with the N1K2 clearly being the most common plane in the arena, is it not clear that MOST people see it as the easiest plane to get kills in?  It is human nature, or so I thought.  How else would you explain the usage?  With the P51, Spit, 109, etc. you can point to a historical "reputation" that may attract people to fly it.  With the La7 and Niki, I get the feeling people are saying "Hum.. whats the BEST plane in the arena that suits my "talent" as a fighter pilot".  If the guy likes fast planes, he goes with an LA7, if he likes to turn more, he goes with a N1K2.  I can only speak from personal experience here, but I had never HEARD of the LA7 OR the N1K2 before I started playing Aces High.  I think it is fairly safe to assume that if it is not some personal "quirk" that attracts someone to a particular plane type, then it would be the planes performace- which in large part is "measured" by the ability to kill other planes.  I believe that as 2 of the 3 most popular planes in the arena have a limited history available to the Western layman, people are attracted to those planes because they are EASY TO GET KILLS IN.  And if the 109F4 was EASIER to get kills in than the N1K2 (which it isn't, in my opinion), then IT would be the most popular plane in the MA.  Anyways, I'll apoligize in advance for the rather combative nature of the post.  I would like to see your reply though, Fatty.

EDIT- One more question.  As of when I checked the stats.. all of the planes that were easier to get kills in than the N1K2 actually had losing records to said plane.  I suppose you can chalk it up to the fact that the only people that have caught on to the fact that those planes are so easy to get kills in are the incompetent pilots, huh?

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[sestreet]

As a newbie - I just wanted to add that I fly the Spit's for two reasons (I know this is about N1K's - but I think it's on the same wavelength):
One because I'm English and like a bit of nostalgia....
But mainly because it is nice to fly and means that I can actually get close up to the enemy, make a few turns, and maybe even fire a few shots off before getting shot down.
I'm sure it's different if you are very used to the game, and air combat tactics in general - but when you're new here you need any extra help you can get.  I'm sure when I get a bit better at it I'll try other 'more challenging' planes - but to be honest I REALLY don't need any other challenges right now!
It seems unless there is one plane that is invincible when up against the rest - then it's really down to self control.
Do the scores here really mean that much to people?  Isn't this just fun?
I think I'd be bored just shooting beginners out of the sky in a plane they can never beat(although some people seem to enjoy it).
If it was a 'first come first served' system up to a maximum number of planes - I'm sure the same people would still get the good planes, as it seems it is experienced flyers or people who play this game a lot - so they would be more likely to be online before me.
Then they'd have the good plane, and I'd get locked out of them and given a much 'harder' plane to fly - and probably give up all together.
Maybe there should be an 'inverse' perk system where the worse you are the better plane you are allowed - leaving the skilled pilot to fly a crate?

[gatt]

Originally posted by SWulfe: I'm not sure what this thread is about. I'm sure I've read some... maybe most.. of it at some point in time.
I read the word "niki", and must comment. It's the N1K2 here. Best way to defeat them is to not play on their terms. Keep a good seperation between you and them, and make sure you manage yourself in the vertical. You will never defeat a N1K2 in a pure sustained turn fight. Unless you are in a Zero, SpitV/SeaFire or a SpitIX very low on gas.
Playing with the N1K2 in his territory (turning with him) or trying to continue your dive past him after you've already dove on him is two of the many foibles a neophyte virtual pilot makes against a N1K2.
They CAN dive. The can NOT roll very fast if they get a lot of speed. Nor can they turn very sharply right away. Your best bet is, if you dive on them to never dive past them but instead level out and fly AWAY from him and eventually work that into altitude again so you can dive on him again. When you are running away from a N1K2 and he is close behind you, roll a few times if he begins to fire a few rounds at you. Extend away and decide your next attack.

All true. This is what a skilled pilot with some hundred hours of flying (and TODs) and a good situational awareness thinks.
I for one never engaged with Nikis, no matter what situation I was in. Simply I was not able to judge his E state. I could do it well for Spitfires IX but not for Nikis.
Problem is that the average and below average AH pilot cannot do it as well. Moreover, the average AH situation is a "multibogey-mid/low alt-medium/low speed engagement": the best for the Niki (with his ammo load, cannons and E retention). And a Niki with 25% fuel ("gaming the game" with external tanks) can do almost everything in those situations.

I really hope that the next AH releases will fix some FM and above all have a balanced plane set. What do I mean? I mean that you have probably to leave out some planes, no matter how good is the FM or how interesting and good they were in RL.  

I understand that many wont agree with me but I strongly believe that a complete and balanced plane set and more scenarios are the key factors. This what AH lacks now, almost the only things AH lacks. IMHO