NOT FUN ANY MORE!!!

[Lusche]

What this reminds me of is the old Airwarrior set up of Relaxed Realism, vs Full Realism.   Everyone started in RR and it always had the most people in it.  It was easier to succeed as it was in essence simplified so that doing well happened faster.  Folks who stuck around long enough moved on to Full Real where the game was harder and success tougher to come by.  

I'm not suggesting that for AH, but it seems like that's what is essentially being described.

Uhm.. you lost me.. 

What has such a goal to do with relaxed vs full realism, or with easy vs difficult?

[grizz441]

As far as I know he mentioned only cities & factories, not town buildings: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,298324.msg3813790.html#msg3813790

Whoops, my mistake, i misread his response.  Towns were being discussed I guess i read what i wanted to read.

[oTRALFZo]

There were three steps that changed the rate of resets. The first one was long ago by introducing the new winning conditions (40% of both enemy coutnries)

The recent changes had significant impact. New town size & distribution made capturing bases harder, and effectively halved the rate of captures (Yes, I could make a chart but it's not so complex that a visualization is necessary... or is it? )

And now the last step the new arena setup: the peak arena maps are only on for 9 hours a day. Much less time to work on.

All factors together: You need more bases to get a reset, but it's much harder to capture each base and you have much less time to do that. So we went from very frequent resets (up to more than once per day) to almost no resets
As far as I know he mentioned only cities & factories, not town buildings: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,298324.msg3813790.html#msg3813790

Did you or any others pick up any patterns in play during the midst of the changes?

Radar settings extended: Reaction   "we cant bases" then came the countless threads on how to exploit it.

Town layout: Reaction:   " Its too hard to take them down and we cant see them when they are destroyed". Then came the high alt bombers to come sweep the hangars so they have enough time to take it down.

Arena setup: Reaction:   "we dont have enough time to reset the maps". Given that this just started last week, Im sure in the near future they will adapt squad nights to fit the bill on this schedule to they can win maps.

Subscriptions down? Perhaps..but do you honestly think that a guy joining the game today is really going to notice these changes?
The WAR can still be won, its not impossible nor too hard to achieve if you are a bit smarter and cordinated in your strat play and that calls that you do play defense too to acheive your goal

I like the changes. At least now I have a choice to engage what I want to engage rather than having to have my clipboard map up searching for that ever clever mission thats roaming the map.

Once things settle down and people get used to the changes, give it time and we will still end up taking one step back to deal with it.

[oTRALFZo]

edit above

[krazey]

Read my post again I'm begging you. Did I not say that IF taking a TT base would mean winning the war THEN i'd take it? If taking another base would have the same result then I'll take that base, but what on earth gives ANYONE the right to tell anyone else " You cant take this base"?
 As I said we ALL play this game our own way, including msyelf  and it is our right to do so ( so long as we aint cheating that is).
 Not a WWII sim? oh no ... just " the internets premier WW1 and WWii combat experience "  according to the games own front page. So ok your right we arent fighting WWII , we are simulating the feel of fighting in those wars. Oh wait... that makes it a sim doesnt it...

[Lusche]

Perhaps..but do you honestly think that a guy joining the game today is really going to notice these changes?

Absolutely not. He will take the game at what it is. Or he will not. But to simplify it: A pure furballing game (yes I'm exaggerating again!) will appeal to fewer players, regardless if it had been that way before or not.

In the words of the great philosopher R.Palmer

"It takes every kind of people
To make what life's about
Every kind of people
To make the world go 'round"  


And yes, you can provide a reachable goal without resorting to "making the game ezy mode" dumbing everything down or provide means of avoding every combat. NOE'S have already been greatly reduced. Offpeak map is a small one, with much less opportunity for sneaks, and so on.

[Guppy35]

Uhm.. you lost me.. 

What has such a goal to do with relaxed vs full realism, or with easy vs difficult?

The balance seems to include making the game playable fast enough and with the ability for the newer folks coming in to feel some success sooner then later.  That was the RR arenas in Airwarrior.  Folks learned the game, got better, felt some success.   The old heads, die hard enthusiasts or however you want to describe the vets eventually died out or moved on to the FR arena where the learning curve was steeper and the gameplay harder.

Right now in AH those groups are mixed with the older die hards mixed in with the newbies.  It just made me wonder how many of the old hands would go to a more challenging arena, and if the new folks would find happiness in a less challenging arena where they could develop their skills.  

[Guppy35]

Read my post again I'm begging you. Did I not say that IF taking a TT base would mean winning the war THEN i'd take it? If taking another base would have the same result then I'll take that base, but what on earth gives ANYONE the right to tell anyone else " You cant take this base"?
 As I said we ALL play this game our own way, including msyelf  and it is our right to do so ( so long as we aint cheating that is).
 Not a WWII sim? oh no ... just " the internets premier WW1 and WWii combat experience "  according to the games own front page. So ok your right we arent fighting WWII , we are simulating the feel of fighting in those wars. Oh wait... that makes it a sim doesnt it...

We're flying cartoon WW2 airplanes.  We aren't simulating WW2.  'Winning the war' aka resetting the map, is just one part of the game that people can choose to play.  We all play the game our own way.  I'd include with that, that I'd hope people would have some consideration for the other people playing the game as well.  We do have an impact on how other folks enjoy the game.  Because this isn't war, keeping that in mind isn't asking too much in my opinion.

[Lusche]

The balance seems to include making the game playable fast enough and with the ability for the newer folks coming in to feel some success sooner then later.  That was the RR arenas in Airwarrior.  Folks learned the game, got better, felt some success.   The old heads, die hard enthusiasts or however you want to describe the vets eventually died out or moved on to the FR arena where the learning curve was steeper and the gameplay harder.

Right now in AH those groups are mixed with the older die hards mixed in with the newbies.  It just made me wonder how many of the old hands would go to a more challenging arena, and if the new folks would find happiness in a less challenging arena where they could develop their skills.  

Am I right that less challenging was mostly due to different flight settings or flight models and so on?
If yes, I think no one here as anything like that in mind. To me, that would be truly a horrible idea.

[Guppy35]

Am I right that less challenging was mostly due to different flight settings or flight models and so on?
If yes, I think no one here as anything like that in mind. To me, that would be truly a horrible idea.

Yep.  And that's not what I'm suggesting.  What I'm reading is that there is a need to keep the newer folks feeling some success and fueling their desire to keep involved in the game via this success.  Those of us who have been around forever sometimes have a hard time with this having managed to enjoy the game throughout the changes.  It often sounds like the cry is to make it easier to play.

[ROX]

So if those guys were going on a NOE mission to a base and no one ups to defend it, are they supposed to turn around or abort the mission?

Alot of bases were left "undefended" because no one wanted to defend them.


And don't hand me that "they were too hard to detect" crap. No they weren't.


There are tons of bases on the map--if some guys decide to take some off the beaten track base, who cares?? How does that affect your furball?

If you would be so kind, please explain what an undefended base looks like?  In all these years and all these missions I have never seen one.

For missions, all I see are uppers and gv's pouring out of the vh like cockroaches as if someone just kicked a garbage can...usually within :30 seconds of the base/town blinking.

Unless they just are always sittin' there waiting 24/7 on the off chance we might attack?

"Undefended" bases my  (  |  )


ROX

>>>>>PS and BTW:  I agree 150% with your quoted comment

[oTRALFZo]

Absolutely not. He will take the game at what it is. Or he will not. But to simplify it: A pure furballing game (yes I'm exaggerating again!) will appeal to fewer players, regardless if it had been that way before or not.

In the words of the great philosopher R.Palmer

"It takes every kind of people
To make what life's about
Every kind of people
To make the world go 'round"  


And yes, you can provide a reachable goal without resorting to "making the game ezy mode" dumbing everything down or provide means of avoding every combat. NOE'S have already been greatly reduced. Offpeak map is a small one, with much less opportunity for sneaks, and so on.

As I agree that this game would get stale real fast if we didnt have the war aspect in it. Fact is still have it and always will. Just because we change it doesnt mean we cant now or ever adapt to it. Sure we get whines when asked to leave our comfort zone, but fact is that most people end up appreciating the change in the long run. On the other hand, there are people that are just too damn stubborn to change anything at all and they watch the world go by. I say leave it be, if people quit because they want a dumbed down game..then so be it. Its a great game that Ive enjoyed the years and certainly wouldnt go as far to quit for such a feable reason

[Guppy35]

Am I right that less challenging was mostly due to different flight settings or flight models and so on?
If yes, I think no one here as anything like that in mind. To me, that would be truly a horrible idea.

Had a moment of inspiration or indigestion depending on your perspective

Set up the two LW arenas.  Same map rotation in each with mainly if not only small maps.  One is labeled Late war Old.  The other Late war New.  Put New on top.  Old has the old settings, New has the current settings.

Open the doors, see what happens.  Would folks go to New because it's on top and because it says New?  Would people figure out that Old has the settings that allow for rapid resets?

Would a follow up Lusche chart show that the Old arena was reset twice as fast as New?  Would the numbers in New remain higher because it's on top?  The pie charts are endless?

[Lusche]

Yep.  And that's not what I'm suggesting.  What I'm reading is that there is a need to keep the newer folks feeling some success and fueling their desire to keep involved in the game via this success.  Those of us who have been around forever sometimes have a hard time with this having managed to enjoy the game throughout the changes.  It often sounds like the cry is to make it easier to play.

The only thing I want to be (somewhat!) easier is in regard to winning the war. I'm not sure yet by what means, but a won war in the LW maybe once a month wouldn't hurt, but could help keeping a lot of players interested or hooked.

I know it sucks, you can blame society, media, the youth, politics or whatever for it... but too few players have such a burning interest for air combat that they will endure being shot down again and again, having a k/d of 0.1 or less for many months or years.  The "war" is just one of several carrots which they can nibble while getting better.
I have seen many basegrabbers transforming into furballers in my years here (unfortunately, more than a few ended up being zealots... a frequent habit of convertites)

People like you and me that have read countless books on that topic for years or decades before touching the joystick for the first time are getting rarer.

[Ack-Ack]

I'm asking that seriously as I really don't understand it.  Why is switching the map so important?  Why is the speed in which it happens so important?

Maybe it's because of the game we originally started with that we have these views.  The section I quoted below shows why those of us old AW DOS and AW4W players just don't see the other side's point and probably why they don't see ours as well.

This goes back to Betty's question.  Wouldn't the participation in the teamwork, and the battle to take a more difficult objective against defenders provide more satisfaction then just getting through the capture faster?  Or is it the sight of the base take on 200 coming across and the 'we've won the war' bit when the map resets that is more important?

The above part I quoted is what made the battles in AW such fun.  It was the fight to destroy or defend the base or factories that made AW such a blast, with large scale air battles lasting for hours.  I still fondly remember a battle to take out the Azland Spitfire factory that lasted over 3 hours.  

To me, it seems that some players are more satisfied with capturing a base to reset the map as quickly as possible than with fighting.  When I mean "fighting" I am not talking about "furballing", I am talking about the fight associated with taking a base which seems that some players like to avoid in order to be able to capture a base quickly.  

That's why I'm with Dan and feel that most of those complaining are doing so because they now feel that they can't take a base as fast as they could in the past and they now have to actually face the prospect of getting into a fight, possibly a long and protracted one to capture a base.  You guys can look at squadrons like the vGuys, they will only attack undefended bases with a mass hord and as soon as opposition ups in force to defend the base, the vGuys leave and look for the next undefended base.  Where is the fun in that?

ack-ack