Author Topic: Video of some upcoming tank changes  (Read 17767 times)

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #180 on: March 26, 2011, 05:10:08 PM »
So essentially point and shoot. Thats how i see it still. I understand what your getting at with the lag time, but i still think its degrading the tank warfare.
What is the "degrading" difference from reality?  The TC would be up there guiding the turret's position. 

Also this isn't a completely new trend. The game has already allowed this kind of multitasking for a long time: you can direct tank driving direction from the turret and top position with rudders.  TC position works as SA-oriented, turret as action-ready.  You can drive around from TCP and instantly jump to turret once you spot something worth turning the turret to.  You can get guns-on very fast if you're in the right gear by "ruddering" the tank around + turning the turret from gunner position.

So it's a historically correct change, and not much of a tactical change from what we have now.  So how have things degraded?  The only negative I see is not having the tank inside modeled.  I'll miss it, but to personally it's a coin flip between that and more toys to play with.  In fact I now think more variety in gameplay elements are probably the most valuable addition HTC could make.

AH isn't a screenshot generator.  It should maximize combat quantity and quality - tactical and strategic combat alike.   Eye candy versus gameplay richness.  Which one is better?  The less better one is a "degrading" choice relative to the more better one; this is an instance of old 'better is good enough's worst enemy' axiom.
Quote
At this point they might as well remove the ability to look behind you in gunner positions of planes as well, as they are 'pretty much useless' as far as gameplay is concerned also.  Why even model the inside of the bomb bays?
Bad comparison.  The gunner positions can't be boiled down to fewer number of position like the driver position in tanks.  Hence the need to still have what the gunner sees - bomber fuselage innards - modeled.
Quote
WASD/Mouse?  How is that NOT dumbing down things?  Aim and click.
Using the word "dumb down" as in the above quote is a style over substance fallacy.  How is simplifying airplanes to combat trim not "dumbing down"?  Not streamlining air combat that way is a "burdensome" realism feature as HT points out.
Quote
I just feel that AH already has a nice balance of 'realism' vs. 'playability
How was (is) it realistic for the TC to effectively teleport away from TCP into driver seat to start engine, and then teleport to gunner to move turret to spotted enemy bearing, then teleport back to TCP (all the while losing a real TC's situational awareness while zapping around the tank's inside) to resume TC duty?
Quote
  I'm seriously concerned about the quantity vs. quality thing.
See above.  Are you as much concerned about the increased quality of ground combat thanks to a richer set of tactical elements (ie unique, non-redundant ground vehicle models) IE "quantity" ?
Quote
WASD/Mouse?  How is that NOT dumbing down things?  Aim and click.
Another wrong point and soon you might be copping out of argument because there's so many things you've said quoted and refuted, but nonetheless these things are wrong:  Do you, in reality, use a joystick to swivel and elevate your head and eye sight?  The reason mouse look as has become the rock solid gold standard in FPS type games is simply that it's the best analog to human behavior.  Track IR already made SA "point and click" in the cockpit, so what's wrong with giving GVers this streamlining as well?


Quote
How long IS it until HiTech is willing to resort to WASD+Mouse and graphics cuts for planes as well?  It almost feels as if we'll be playing two separate games at this point.  A 'relatively' realistic flight sim, and a FPS 'unrelatively' unrealistic Tank sim.  At least the operating characteristics of the two were previously 'well matched' with each other, but not any more?
in bold- Where is the evidence for this specific thing?  Show evidence for this trend or admit you made it up...  There's no hints anywhere anytime that airplanes will go to WASD.  You're comparing planes and GVs like they weren't apples and oranges.
Where is your advocacy against combat trim?  Against auto retracting flaps?  Clipboard GPS radar?  Standardized instrument metrics? Standardized instrumentation depth IE all planes having automatic fuel mixture etc? Unhistorical payload configurations?  Undercarriage brakes foolproofed from noseplants?  Etc etc.  Never mind the more extreme ones like pre-flight check, etc.

Quote
I just don't quit know how I feel with incorporating Arcade-Style antics with AH as it is now.
All things considered you're missing the point..  The only detrimental change is not having tank insides modeled for their immersion value.

Quote
I'm just afraid that they will forget what this game is about and end up turning it into something that is just like "That Other Game".
To be like WoT, AH would have to have some genuine "dumbing downs": No ballistics, including a gawd awful dispersion system that literally makes some shells fly out sideways for "gameplay balance" concerns.  No physics.  A magic reticle that instantly tells you what damage you'll cause by pointing at various points on target vehicle.
Some of the positives present in WoT (which WoT in no way has some kind of patent on AFAIK) that AH should shamelessly adopt: changing round type shouldn't be instantaneous. Trees shouldn't be indestructible obstacles, and ideally at least some buildings as well. Damage should occur on rams, incl. turret barrel unlike WoT. ... Other things I know are better but aren't in AH, IOW WoT:AH comparison here and now isn't so simplistic as one being arcade and the other being sim. 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 05:42:58 PM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #181 on: March 26, 2011, 05:30:13 PM »
One question: Can we get the German ranging system put into ship's guns too, so you can keep the crosshairs on the target when elevating for extreme range?
You can do this to some degree already.  Move the ship gunner's head position, and use F8 pan mode to point the camera at the crosshair without having to zoom out.
Quote
(I'd also love it if you could launch individual destroyers in the dueling arena for some cool ship-to-ship actions).
That'd definitely be fun.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline AWwrgwy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5478
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #182 on: March 26, 2011, 08:11:51 PM »
Quote
Maybe... maybe not.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out though.  Yes I see your point about the different reticules, however there is still the "F3" like mode, and the simplicity of the WASD+Mouse.

What is different between the "F3 Like mode" we have now in the TC position versus what is proposed?
WASD is simpler than Q + Push stick forward?

Quote
I don't necessarily disagree with you there and they are correct in that the internals are 'pretty much useless' as far as gameplay is concerned.  It still feels arcade-ish and cheap to me though.  At this point they might as well remove the ability to look behind you in gunner positions of planes as well, as they are 'pretty much useless' as far as gameplay is concerned also.  Why even model the inside of the bomb bays?  I'm seriously concerned about the quantity vs. quality thing.

I believe the point is they are not modeling what you cannot see. Notice there is nothing behind the tunnel door on a B-29?

Quote
If the main gun can be fired from the commander's position, then this will be extremely 'gamey'.  If not then maybe it won't be so bad.  What I got out of the demonstration video was that any gun could be aimed and fired from the commander's position (albeit without the reticule).  I can see people getting very good at gauging a target's distance without even needing the site, and they would completely change the entire tank game within AH.

People are very good at estimating distance from the gunners position now. What's the difference? If you can fire from the TC position you will not have the zoom of the gunners optics. Think pintle zoom versus gunners zoom.

Most of the "gamey" aspects are already possible now. 180mph in neutral down hill?? The big difference is WASD versus Q, W, stick forward and steer with petals from the TC position. Now you will be able to stop and start. Like telling the driver what to do.

One question: Can we get the German ranging system put into ship's guns too, so you can keep the crosshairs on the target when elevating for extreme range? .
You can do this to some degree already.  Move the ship gunner's head position, and use F8 pan mode to point the camera at the crosshair without having to zoom out.That'd definitely be fun.

What about Sea Mode? Press E and you can see what you are shooting at. You still can't see the crosshairs though. That's what the mouse is for.


wrongway
71 (Eagle) Squadron
"THAT"S PAINT!!"

"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay

Offline jolly22

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1587
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #183 on: March 26, 2011, 08:27:37 PM »
Alright, im getting your point clearly, but i don't see the point for the whole mouse to look around thing. Its the same as a hat switch?

And what happens when you pull up the clipboard to check something? Will moving the mouse move your turret?

3./JG 53 cheerleader - Battle Over The Winter Line - FLY AXIS - JRjolly

Offline Belial

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #184 on: March 26, 2011, 09:27:16 PM »
Alright, im getting your point clearly, but i don't see the point for the whole mouse to look around thing. Its the same as a hat switch?

And what happens when you pull up the clipboard to check something? Will moving the mouse move your turret?





Watch the video again he goes over this.


Offline Belial

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1589
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #185 on: March 26, 2011, 09:28:05 PM »
And these changes are very minute. The biggest glaring flaw in tanking is the indestructible objects point blank.

Offline Shiva

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 966
      • http://members.cox.net/srmalloy/
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #186 on: March 26, 2011, 09:46:26 PM »
Alright, im getting your point clearly, but i don't see the point for the whole mouse to look around thing. Its the same as a hat switch?
No; the hat switch is instantaneous jump to that view, and the turret doesn't slew to follow.
Quote
And what happens when you pull up the clipboard to check something? Will moving the mouse move your turret?
As the narration in the video says, when you pull up the map, it uncouples the mouse, and it goes back to being a mouse pointer until you put the map away.

Offline HighTone

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1299
      • Squad Site
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #187 on: March 26, 2011, 10:22:47 PM »
Looks good. I like the W,S,A,D for driving.  :aok

LCA Special Events CO     LCA ~Tainan Kokutai~       
www.lcasquadron.org      Thanks for the Oscar HTC

Offline Beefcake

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2285
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #188 on: March 26, 2011, 10:57:24 PM »
Once upon a time I played a game called Battlefield 1942: Forgotten Hope(mod). In this game I would almost always drive tanks whenever the map had them. When driving the tank you used WSAD + mouse to aim and fire the main gun. The view system had an internal view that gave you a viewport + gunsight as well as an external view with no sight. There were no internal details modeled and you couldn't turn your head inside the tank. Basically it's an almost identical system to what HT is doing.

Why do I mention this. I played that game for 4 years almost every night driving tanks. Why? It was fun as hell! I hope that this new system will bring back some of that fun.
Retired Bomber Dweeb - 71 "Eagle" Squadron RAF

Offline M0nkey_Man

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2254
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #189 on: March 26, 2011, 11:02:26 PM »
Once upon a time I played a game called Battlefield 1942: Forgotten Hope(mod). In this game I would almost always drive tanks whenever the map had them. When driving the tank you used WSAD + mouse to aim and fire the main gun. The view system had an internal view that gave you a viewport + gunsight as well as an external view with no sight. There were no internal details modeled and you couldn't turn your head inside the tank. Basically it's an almost identical system to what HT is doing.

Why do I mention this. I played that game for 4 years almost every night driving tanks. Why? It was fun as hell! I hope that this new system will bring back some of that fun.
:aok battlefield is fun
FlyKommando.com


"Tip of the dull butter knife"
delta07

Offline EskimoJoe

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4831
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #190 on: March 26, 2011, 11:06:45 PM »
Once upon a time I played a game called Battlefield 1942: Forgotten Hope(mod). In this game I would almost always drive tanks whenever the map had them. When driving the tank you used WSAD + mouse to aim and fire the main gun. The view system had an internal view that gave you a viewport + gunsight as well as an external view with no sight. There were no internal details modeled and you couldn't turn your head inside the tank. Basically it's an almost identical system to what HT is doing.

Why do I mention this. I played that game for 4 years almost every night driving tanks. Why? It was fun as hell! I hope that this new system will bring back some of that fun.

From what I understand, it will be a tad more complex than Battlefield, but I'm
certain the fun-factor will be near-identical  :aok
Put a +1 on your geekness atribute  :aok

Offline Mygg

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #191 on: March 27, 2011, 06:01:29 AM »
Sounds like the lads at HTC are aware of "World of tanks", since joysticks are rare in this era of PC gaming and people have become habitually accustomed to playing tanks like this, this is definitely a step forward in making the game more accessible!

Offline clerick

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1742
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #192 on: March 27, 2011, 06:48:38 AM »
AAAAAAAAAAH ITS NEW!! I MUST HATES IT MY PRECIOUS!

Offline flatiron1

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1682
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #193 on: March 27, 2011, 09:33:58 AM »
I tried world of tanks beta version. did not like using mouse and keyboard to play, hope our new gv system is not like that.

Offline Reaper90

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3322
Re: Video of some upcoming tank changes
« Reply #194 on: March 27, 2011, 10:52:44 AM »
If the main gun can be fired from the commander's position, then this will be extremely 'gamey'.  If not then maybe it won't be so bad.  What I got out of the demonstration video was that any gun could be aimed and fired from the commander's position (albeit without the reticule). 

See, this is what I don't understand. I've watched the youtube video no fewer than 5 times, and at NO POINT does he ever say, or even HINT, that the main gun (or ANY of the guns) can be fired from the commander's position. The ONLY thing that happens differently (apart from being able to drive from there as opposed to the old "Driver" position) is that the turret rotates to follow your joystick input. He even jumps from the commander's position several times into the gunsight to illustrate that there is still a main gun "turret" position with a gunsight, and demonstrates the new main gunsight changes.

How you guys are coming up with this stuff, i.e. firing main gun from the commander's position, no more turret position / main gun gunsight view, etc... when NOWHERE in the vid did he ever indicate anything remotely close to that... is beyond me.
Floyd
'Murican dude in a Brit Squad flying Russian birds, drinking Canadian whiskey