Author Topic: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up  (Read 3910 times)

Offline MK-84

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2011, 04:22:51 PM »
The OP's statistics are backwards.  I think he has a bright future in politics as he is doing very well on using statistics to lie.

The percentage of a bomber's kills that are GVs, particularly when the bomber in question has a very hard time killing other aircraft, tells us literally nothing useful.

The statistic he should have been showing is what percentage of GVs were destroyed by said bomber, but that doesn't serve his desire.  There has been a lot of utter hyperbole spread on this forum over the last few days by people who GV a lot and to listen to them talk about aircraft ruining the tank game you'd think that aircraft were getting at least 50% of the kills on GV, probably more like 66% or 75%.

According to luche .3% of all panzerIV's were destroyed by lancs last tour.  Is  that what you mean?

Offline Karnak

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2011, 04:25:44 PM »
According to luche .3% of all panzerIV's were destroyed by lancs last tour.  Is  that what you mean?
Yes, that is the relevant number.  It takes it from being an apparent epidemic to being 3 out of 1000 Panzer IV deaths.  I would guess that perk tanks likely have a higher percentage of losses to aircraft than the Panzer IV though, simply because people stuck in Panzer IVs, T-34/76s and M4A3(75)s will at times resort to coming back with a Typhoon or what have you out of frustration.
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Offline MK-84

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2011, 04:30:53 PM »
Yes, that is the relevant number.  It takes it from being an apparent epidemic to being 3 out of 1000 Panzer IV deaths.  I would guess that perk tanks likely have a higher percentage of losses to aircraft than the Panzer IV though, simply because people stuck in Panzer IVs, T-34/76s and M4A3(75)s will at times resort to coming back with a Typhoon or what have you out of frustration.

I never said it was an epidemic, if anything it appears to be the opposite, although compared with the other heavy bombers there is at least some merit to the concept

Offline Lusche

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2011, 04:45:01 PM »
I would guess that perk tanks likely have a higher percentage of losses to aircraft than the Panzer IV though, simply because people stuck in Panzer IVs, T-34/76s and M4A3(75)s will at times resort to coming back with a Typhoon or what have you out of frustration.


While about 9% of Panzer IV had been killed by planes, it's about 18% for the Tiger. But then you also almost never see Tigers upping again & again to break a camped spawn.


While the whole "Lancstuka" discussion is compeltely out of proportion, the GV vs Plane issue withing gameplay is a bit too complex to be reduced to simple numbers only.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 04:47:10 PM by Lusche »
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Offline jamdive

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2011, 07:12:51 PM »
This is the most retarded use of statistics I have ever seen.

Offline LLogann

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2011, 07:28:58 PM »
Most Panzer's are killed by a perk tank.....  That particular perk tank is killed most, by Panzers.......   

Stats don't lie.

This is the most retarded use of statistics I have ever seen.
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Offline MK-84

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2011, 08:20:04 PM »
This is the most retarded use of statistics I have ever seen.

Why?

Offline jamdive

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2011, 09:33:41 PM »
Why?

Why? Because you are using these numbers to support an argument about "lancstukas"
It gives no such information on how the bomber was used. Did it egg a vh and kill uppers from 20k? Did it dive bomb?
What did it do to get these kills?

Offline MK-84

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2011, 09:58:25 PM »
Why? Because you are using these numbers to support an argument about "lancstukas"
It gives no such information on how the bomber was used. Did it egg a vh and kill uppers from 20k? Did it dive bomb?
What did it do to get these kills?

At no point did I say it supported it, or did not. I stated that while the lancaster does seem to be used to directly bomb GV's in in ways that say, a b17 or b24 does not, there are much greater threats to GV's from the air.  The A20 and the IL2 are prime examples.  Did you actually read all of this?  I'm pretty sure I already said this.

Offline Fish42

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2011, 10:09:56 PM »

For some odd reason I never see Lancs going "Stuka" at all. All I see is them dropping bombs from level flight or a very shallow (and not very fast) dive - which shouldn't be much of a problem.
This reminds me a bit of all that talk about Spit 16's accelerating while going straight up that was so prevalent for about 2-3 years ;)



In the book 'The Dam Busters', by Paul Brickhill, there multiple instances of Lancs being used in high angel diving attacks.

617 were struggling to find a way to mark targets at night for precision bombing (they were going to be dropping the 6000lb Tallboys, though they did not know it).  They had tried Pathfinders but they were not able to pin point the target well enough for the work 617 was expected to do. And when they tried to mark from 5k with flares, it was found that they bounced and skidded too far off target.
It was "Micky" Martin who first came up with the idea to dive-bomb targets to accurately mark. .He was RTB after a practise bombing flight. He had a few practise bombs left, when he spotted a patch of seaweed. Always ready to spice up his flying (as per book) he winged over and dove at the patch. He released the bomb and pulled up. It was a direct hit. Upon landing he raced to the C.O.s office (Leonard Cheshire) saying he had figured it out.

They then proceeded to use this tactic on targets all over Germany & France. A flare force would drop at 5-8k to light the area. Then Cheshire and Martin would dive from 5k then pull up at low over the target. Later they used Mossies and P51s as Lancs where big targets for the flak. Saying that, they never lost a Lanc in the marking group (I think it?s been a while sense I read the book).


Offline MK-84

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2011, 10:13:06 PM »
I think luche means by going "stuka" he means helldiving, something I'm pretty sure a Lanc can not do. 

Offline Fish42

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2011, 10:53:19 PM »
I think luche means by going "stuka" he means helldiving, something I'm pretty sure a Lanc can not do. 

yes, lancs may not have dived 10k to hit a target yet a high angel dive for a few 1000ft at low speed was possible. If you try both in the game one will snap your wings off and the other will let you land bombs on target almost everytime.

I only brought it up to supports Luches post. If lances could do high angel short dives, then the shallow dives most use in game are fine. and as AKAK posted they did get used to attack tanks.

Offline des506

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2011, 10:55:51 PM »
This is the most retarded use of statistics I have ever seen.

cos ur retarded.... where's the telly tubbies???  :neener:

FYI i  :O jamdive

 :rofl :rofl :rofl

one way to test it.. ask a commercial pilot... cos the lancs characteristics are very similar to today's commercial airliner in my opinion... weight load and all... maybe they have some insights into this issue... whether it is possible or not..
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 10:59:32 PM by des506 »
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Offline oneway

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2011, 11:23:06 PM »
I agree that this use of statistics misses the point

A group of GV's are advancing on a town/base and a single opfor pilot ups a Lanc (Or any heavy level platform) and makes repetitive quick hops doing the F3 dive bomb thing...

HT really needs to disable level bombers from being able to bomb below a certain alt and not dropping from the bomb sight

These "lanca stuka" guys give real bombers a bad rap and contribute nothing to the game play

 :bolt:

Offline guncrasher

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Re: Lancstuka...the data no one bothered to look up
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2011, 01:05:43 AM »
It doesn't matter...it does not invalidate the fact that Lancasters, along with other heavy bombers were used to bomb tanks in real life.  Nice try though, better luck next time.

ack-ack

it does matter, how many tanks were destroyed on that day?  hundreds? thousands? a few?  sending over 1k lancs to bomb gv's doesnt mean they went in individually and hunted down individual tanks one by one, like you try to compare to the game.  most likely on that day they were assigned an area and they dropped bombs on that area tanks or no tanks.

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