Dewoitine D.520

[Butcher]

I've read far more then enough books on the D.520 and M.S.406, both fit the bill to be added in game.

It flew not only with the French, germans AND italians, Italians which took over 60 D.520s from france in Early 1943, when Italy joined the Allies they still had 16 D.520s in its inventory flying daily.

If thats not enough the Vichy French Gov. had a deal with the Bulgarians for Bloch MB.152s, however the German's turned the deal down and offered D.520s as "War prizes". 120 Aircraft with spares were sent, first combat was 10 december 43.
I could go on and on and on about where the D.520 fought, the MAIN issue it did not fly with the Allies in Africa was due to the Radio setup, one of few reasons it wasn't so active in the North africa campaign, however a squadron or two did cover the Torch landings.

Technically speaking this is one of the very few aircrafts that actually flew for multiple countries on both sides of the conflict, trying to say its simply "French" would be slander, I say its great since it would be flown in quite a few "theaters" of operation on both sides.

Sources? Yellow Series - D.520 by Bartomiej Belcarz, Aero Details, Close up D.520, Osprey Aircam

I see no reason it shouldn't be added.

[danny76]

Krusty, could you at least consider that the way you approach this BBS kind of brings these reactions on yourself. You can't have half a dozen people at any given moment 'posting lies and slander' without just for a moment considering the common denominator: you.

You seem very passionate about WWII aviation and that's fantastic, but sometimes your opinionated or authoritative delivery just turns everyone against you. Take this thread for instance. You're so sure, so adamantly sure you are right and so forcefully are you asserting that, that you're actually doing the best job of promoting the D.520 possible, because people just become belligerent & unite against you.

It's easy to get righteously indignant on a forum, we've all done it, including me (much to my later embarrassment) but someone very wise once told me there was great value and strength in posting your opinion and then leaving it at that. If your opinion has merit it should displace those with less merit, and so on.

Even if you win this argument about the numbers of aircraft serving, it really doesn't get you anywhere anyway, since we already know HTC will include an interesting aircraft if they see fit, regardless of the numbers flown (again I cite the Ta-152). Squabbling over a finite resource, in this case HTC's rate of releasing new aircraft, is always going to get ugly, but we are just players all, with equally little influence. I'm sure I'll never see my beloved Westland Whirlwind in this game, but this is the Wishlist, we are allowed to discuss and propose our dream aircraft here, the decision for inclusion lies elsewhere.

This is just how I see things.


 

Where's the clapping smiley?

[Krusty]

Shida, that's a very biased comment coming from you. You, personally, have tried to pass the blame to me in the past, in threads you have derailed, perhaps the ones you refer to.

I'm not just arguing numbers. They're all there for anybody to read about. I'm arguing impact on the war. It's there to be seen. What Megalodon is trying to do is backpedal, insult, throw up false arguments to hide his own mistakes, and misdirections, all on par with Gaston or the likes.

The fact of the matter is you can't state your position and leave it at that. Often somebody with intent to misdirect, lie, or fabricate will constantly spin up a veil of false support for something when he only has selfish motives. In this case I mean Megalodon. He has turned around and called me a liar for quoting his own source against him. Twinboom has called me also a liar, without bothering to read the content or comprehend why I was pointing this out to Megalodon. You see, the same small select group of folks over and over likes to throw insults and names at me. They do it quite often.

To implicate that I am to blame for their misguided pathetic attempts to ... do whatever the hell they're trying to do... is simply an unfair accusation. Might as well say it was the Jews' fault that Hitler persecuted them, you see? That argument doesn't stand up to any logic.

I have been quite civil this entire thread, and have stated repeatedly my opinion, and repeatedly backed it with facts and details, and yet repeatedly Megalodon simply ignores anything I say with a dismissive insult.

It shouldn't stand. Hence why I have quite calmly and rationally pointed out how his posts have been as much nonsense as Gaston's latest wing-warping tyrade.

P.S. If you want to discuss the Ta152 and why it is not a comparison, I would be happy to oblige, but not in this thread. Too much misdirection and straw arguments are being thrown around in here. It needs to be kept on track. Start another thread if you like and i will join in.

[nrshida]

Well it was just an suggestion that you could consider altering your approach if you want a different response, you can take or leave it. I wonder why you take people disagreeing with you as some kind of personal attack everytime?

I'm not just arguing numbers. They're all there for anybody to read about. I'm arguing impact on the war.

I know, and as I said it doesn't matter, since HTC has already introduced several combat aircraft that had less impact on the war than this one, the Ta152 being just one example. If it is your standpoint that HTC had no business introducing the Ta152 then again, that's just your opinion, but it's not up to you is it? Since you're just a player like the rest of us.

The fact of the matter is you can't state your position and leave it at that.

Well what else can you do practically? Let me ask you how is your present technique working out for you?

[hlbly]

Shida, that's a very biased comment coming from you. You, personally, have tried to pass the blame to me in the past, in threads you have derailed, perhaps the ones you refer to.

I'm not just arguing numbers. They're all there for anybody to read about. I'm arguing impact on the war. It's there to be seen. What Megalodon is trying to do is backpedal, insult, throw up false arguments to hide his own mistakes, and misdirections, all on par with Gaston or the likes.

The fact of the matter is you can't state your position and leave it at that. Often somebody with intent to misdirect, lie, or fabricate will constantly spin up a veil of false support for something when he only has selfish motives. In this case I mean Megalodon. He has turned around and called me a liar for quoting his own source against him. Twinboom has called me also a liar, without bothering to read the content or comprehend why I was pointing this out to Megalodon. You see, the same small select group of folks over and over likes to throw insults and names at me. They do it quite often.

To implicate that I am to blame for their misguided pathetic attempts to ... do whatever the hell they're trying to do... is simply an unfair accusation. Might as well say it was the Jews' fault that Hitler persecuted them, you see? That argument doesn't stand up to any logic.

I have been quite civil this entire thread, and have stated repeatedly my opinion, and repeatedly backed it with facts and details, and yet repeatedly Megalodon simply ignores anything I say with a dismissive insult.

It shouldn't stand. Hence why I have quite calmly and rationally pointed out how his posts have been as much nonsense as Gaston's latest wing-warping tyrade.

P.S. If you want to discuss the Ta152 and why it is not a comparison, I would be happy to oblige, but not in this thread. Too much misdirection and straw arguments are being thrown around in here. It needs to be kept on track. Start another thread if you like and i will join in.

Quite calmly and rationally insult you mean right ? Impact on the war is your yardstick ? What impact on the war did the 152 have ? Did it turn back the allied bomber streams ? Did it save the 3rd Reich ?   Your position is that the 520 had no impact on the war so it does not deserve to be added . People are pointing out that other planes had far less effect yet are included . So your point holds no water .Ta-152  combat record is probably single digit kills and losses . Production aircraft less than 50 . A plane of almost no impact is what people are saying yet we have it . The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. No straw man here . You kill the messenger for what he brings by attacking shida . He points out you bring the animosity of people on yourself . You say here you have been cordial . "100 percent BS and lies" is hardly cordial . Shida was actually trying to do you a solid . Telling you if you word things differently you may have better reactions . I have come up with a new rule for myself here maybe it will help you . When I am in a heated debate and I read a post that gets me fired up . I wait for 3 hours before I let myself respond .

[TwinBoom]

Krusty it seems everyone in this thread is picking on you, so why dont ya do yourself a favor and leave it.
You are hijacking my thread with your Biased opinion turning it into a name slinging contest, so please leave yet once again.


Bring on the D.520!

Here are some pics of her having no impact on the War with various countries.
From  these pics its obvious she didn't serve multiple countries and multiple squadrons and multiple sorties downing multiple targets.
****END SARCASM****

[matt]

Krusty it seems everyone in this thread is picking on you, so why dont ya do yourself a favor and leave it.
You are hijacking my thread with your Biased opinion turning it into a name slinging contest, so please leave yet once again.


Bring on the D.520!

Here are some pics of her having no impact on the War with various countries.
From  these pics its obvious she didn't serve multiple countries and multiple squadrons and multiple sorties downing multiple targets.
****END SARCASM****
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+1

[Krusty]

So you're using Bulgarian, Italian, French, and German markings as your evidence?

Germans used it as an advanced trainer. French... well we've coved the 2 weeks the French used it. Bulgarian? Of the 120 airframes they received, they only had a handful of sorties later in the war after years of no action, after which they were immediately replaced with 109Gs. The Bulgarians had them, but impact on the war was nothing for them. Italians? Captured aircraft pressed into service. Wasn't the only type they did that with. Saw minor action. Macchis and Fiats were plentiful and saw most of the action, backed by German exports (109s).


Just because there's a photo of it doesn't qualify its existence, just states that it existed. You can find photos of many planes in markings that played little or no role in the war. Need I dig up photos of the He-113 on flightlines being scrambled against incoming bombers? In case you don't understand, there WERE no He-113s and they didn't see any combat. But... there are plenty of photos of them!


So, photos of those various marking doesn't change any of the facts put forth in this thread. You still must face these facts.



P.S. Hlbly you're so off base it's not even in the same time zone.

[Megalodon]

twinboom, don't you dare tell me what to do. You haven't earned that right by a long shot.

As for "megalodon" and his constant insults being thrown at me, his insinuations and implications, he is just a blow-hard who is plugging his ears to the facts and screaming like a child throwing a tantrum.


The D.520 did not fight the entire war. That's as bald-faced a lie as you can get. If you call being relegated to "advanced trainer" and being dumped on export allies that would rarely ever use it, then you have a very bad definition of "served the entire war"...

As for your link, it seems you didn't even read it yourself. More comprehension fail on your part. Did you actually read the dates and the numbes it lists? Here's one example:

"On May 16th, Wez-Thuisy was bombarded by He 111s : 2 D.520 were destroyed and 7 damaged. On May 17th, the Group reached Meaux-Esbly (France) with 18 D.520 (only 6 operational)."

6 operational planes for an entire GROUP. What else do you think they were flying in that time? Moraine-Saulners? H75s? Remember, armistace was signed in June, and in May thay had 6 operational for the group. Yes, they were getting batches of replacements, but the point is if the best-staffed group with the most planes and was there the longest only had 6 planes flyable.... what exactly are you reading? Because it doesn't paint a good picture.

That's all G.C.I, though. Maybe we should look at the others...

G.C.II, changed from M.S.406 (which had been fighting since the previous year, if you recall) on May 20th... that's the month before June (which is when the armistace was signed).

In early June the G.C.II/3 squadron was seeing some action in D.520s, but in small numbers. Nothing to indicate full squadron strength was in the air at any time, unlike G.C.I's aircraft.

How about G.C.II/6? Begun equipping in June, no time for any real action. Disbanded shortly after armistace. However in that short time span they moved around constantly to no less than seven different airfields. I doubt they were doing much for the war effort.

How about G.C.II/7? They didn't convert until the end of May (again, right before armistace). Minor action in one major dogfight. Their last 3 victories of the war were on June 15th. 15 days of service, give or take.

Moving on to the third group, G.G.III/3 was also started on D.520s in early June. By June 7th they were already retreating, and burning D.520s where they stood rather than let Germans overtake them sitting on fields. 1 week before they were already out of the fight in some cases. Between the 10th and the 13th of June the unit moved 3 times. Their last mission was on the 16th. For a unit formed in early June, it was also done fighting in early June.

Then there's G.C.III/6... They only received their first 7 D.520s on June 10th. Between the 10th and the the 20th, they received more, but only saw a couple of fights with the Italians before fleeing with their planes to North Africa to avoid the armistace. 10 days and a couple sorties.

The D.520 saw very little action as compared to the whole of French aircraft at the time. You ought to look up the action of the hawks, or the 406s, if you want to compare that apple of yours to more apples, instead of comparing it to... well NOTHING.


Did you even bother reading this stuff? This is your own link, man. You're knocking your own sell on your butt, man.

You are the straw man Krusty you are picking and choosing the info just like you pick in the sky's of AH.

You also fail to remember that it was about 750 vs. 3500 total aircraft at the beginning.
 
I will address the 1st of your reading comprehension fail's and that's all the time I have K.

you posted this:
"On May 16th, Wez-Thuisy was bombarded by He 111s : 2 D.520 were destroyed and 7 damaged. On May 17th, the Group reached Meaux-Esbly (France) with 18 D.520 (only 6 operational)."

and then went rampent:
"6 operational planes for an entire GROUP. What else do you think they were flying in that time? Moraine-Saulners? H75s? Remember, armistace was signed in June, and in May thay had 6 operational for the group. Yes, they were getting batches of replacements, but the point is if the best-staffed group with the most planes and was there the longest only had 6 planes flyable.... what exactly are you reading? Because it doesn't paint a good picture."

You failed to post all the correct info and only posted what you thought made your case. The next sentence you saw they received 10  more aircraft but chopped it out of your quote:

In April and May, the Group received 41 D.520s but only 34 "operational for war" on May 10th. Comparative trials (April 21st, 1940) against a captured Bf 109E-3 showed a 20 mph higher speed for the 109 but a superior manoeuvrability for the D.520. The Group was leaded by the Commander Thibaudet and the 1st and 2nd Squadrons by Captains Pape and Challe. Based on May 11th at Wez-Thuisy (Reims, France), the Group claimed the first 4 kills on the 13th May (3 Henschel 126 and 1 Heinkel 111).

"On May 16th, Wez-Thuisy was bombarded by He 111s : 2 D.520 were destroyed and 7 damaged. On May 17th, the Group reached Meaux-Esbly (France) with 18 D.520 (only 6 operational). The same day, the Second-lieutenant Thierry was shot down but not killed. 10 new D.520 were then delivered. On May 18th, 1 Do 17 destroyed the D.520 of Commander Thibaudet and shot down Sgt Bouffier who crashed near Château-Thierry but survived whereas the Do 17 was shot down. then followed 1 victory on the 19th, 1 probable on the 20th and 1 on the 21st.

5 days later 10 more arrived:
On May 24th, arrived 10 new D.520s and 3 Czech pilots and the mechanics were getting the other planes  up and running.


You can pick and choose to try to make your point all you like. You make it sound like the had only 6 planes which is just a false as can be. Then you discount the replacements. You also try to make it sound like they just recieved the plane and had no time to train when in reality the group started receiving the D520 in January.  

This is on the web page but I will post it just for all to see.

These are the kills of just Gc I/3 in the D.520 from 17 May until 16 June '40, just under 1 month. Of course they went on to Algeria after.










Not bad for 6 guys who got reinforcements eh?

Pierre Colombier avec le lieutenant Salva, La Sénia 1941.

[nrshida]

P.S. Hlbly you're so off base it's not even in the same time zone.

I did hope Krusty would take it in the spirit intended but we've argued before so he'll assume he's being attacked.

Didn't make any difference I notice. He's like the Energizer Bunny 

[Shifty]

To implicate that I am to blame for their misguided pathetic attempts to ... do whatever the hell they're trying to do... is simply an unfair accusation. Might as well say it was the Jews' fault that Hitler persecuted them, you see? That argument doesn't stand up to any logic.

Comparing his plight in a purse fight to the Holocaust takes the cake. 

[Krusty]

Comparing his plight in a purse fight to the Holocaust takes the cake. 

This is a WW2 frame of reference. I chose the most obvious example. The point remains the same, you're blaming the target, instead of those taking the cheap/weak shots.

[Krusty]

I did hope Krusty would take it in the spirit intended but we've argued before so he'll assume he's being attacked.

Didn't make any difference I notice. He's like the Energizer Bunny 

I do appreciate your comments Shida, and I understand the point you were trying to make.

I think you are wrong, but I appreciate the comments and the polite way in which they were delivered.

I don't think that changes the issue with magalodon, though.

[Krusty]

You are the straw man Krusty you are picking and choosing the info just like you pick in the sky's of AH.

You also fail to remember that it was about 750 vs. 3500 total aircraft at the beginning.

You're a little misguided on the first part, and more so on the second part.

I did not pretend they only had 6. I said that if the first unit to fully convert was down to only 6 planes at one point of fighting, where the fighthing ended June 15th for all units, give or take a day, that doesn't say much for their combat effectiveness. I openly admit it wasn't the norm and I wasn't hiding anything (which is why I added they got reinforcements), but the point remains the best equipped and most trained unit was so pressed for airfames that at the height of their use the D.520 could only field 5 planes on a particular day... you can't ignore that. The nature of the French Air Force is widely regarded as one of the least efficient and most disorganized amongst WW2 air forces. I did it to prove a point, and was not cherry picking nor hiding details.


And you keep harping on the 750 number, but this is patently false. You're quoting post war production and exports and ignore actual strength at the time of Battle of France. Your scanned chart shows first D.520 received in May for most of those units. First received, let alone "fully converted to type".... At BoF time, only 330 or so were sent from the factory, and they definitely weren't flying in waves of 50 through the skies, or anything. The highest they could field were 11 at a time here, or 14 there, and those are the higher numbers posted.

Compare this to the 1000 M.S. 406s in service and the 300 Hawks. You'll see it's a pale comparison.

[Megalodon]

And you keep harping on the 750 number, but this is patently false. You're quoting post war production and exports and ignore actual strength at the time of Battle of France. Your scanned chart shows first D.520 received in May for most of those units. First received, let alone "fully converted to type".... At BoF time, only 330 or so were sent from the factory, and they definitely weren't flying in waves of 50 through the skies, or anything. The highest they could field were 11 at a time here, or 14 there, and those are the higher numbers posted.

Compare this to the 1000 M.S. 406s in service and the 300 Hawks. You'll see it's a pale comparison.

 The 750 number I'm quoting is not the # of D.520's at the beginning of hostilities, more reading comprehension fail by you, but all aircraft available at the start. Not the 775 Dewoitine's made by 43. However all of these planes were being replaced by the D.520.
You also imply that they had 300 hawks in service at once and they did not, mater fact by the end of the BOF there were more D.520 still available than the total number of hawks received from the lend/lease deal with the U.S.





 And once again there were 1200+ M.S. 406 made.