My only wish...

[Martyn]

I agree with the principle, but I don't agree with throwing in (seemingly) arbitrary rules to support it.

For instance, attacks by hordes can be fun if you're a member of the horde (for a while anyway). But in RL the creation of an attack was often preceded by a lot of radio chatter and build up of assets prior to the launch. We can't simulate that in game but we may be able to recreate something similar - an idea might be (perhaps) to issue a 'Flash Warning Message' from HQ (if it's up) that there's an enemy mission of 10+ planes upping from a field near x/y (or whatever). We won't know where its bound, but it might help to mitigate hording while at the same time still allowing surprise raids - provided they're planned better (it's just an idea).

A new use for the Storch / Lysander maybe - drop an 'agent' near an enemy field and he'll report back to the player on all aircraft taking off from an enemy field for the next 15 minutes - (unless a GV finds the spotter and shoots him).

Also, I don't know for certain, but someone suggested that heavy bombers couldn't release their bombs when diving due to the angle of drop - which sounds kinda plausible if you have racks of bombs.

Anyway, my point is there may be better ways to prevent poor game-play than just creating 'rules'.

[waystin2]

While I agree with some points, I must say it is up to the individual player to create enjoyment for themselves.  I have to do it on a daily basis when logging in, but I always seem to come up with some fun and new to do.   Get up there, and have some fun Sir, you worry too much...

[The Fugitive]

Fugi,
If you go into the game expecting it to annoy you is it any wonder that you keep getting annoyed?
Funny how it's everyne else's fault that you don't seem to be enjoying it.
Funny how the majority of peple love the game and enjoy playing it their own way without worrying about how you are playing it, let alone dictating that you shuld have to play it like they do.

With respect, but little diplomacy, I would suggest to you to either quit the game or find a way of enjoying it without trying to change other people.

and...

While I agree with some points, I must say it is up to the individual player to create enjoyment for themselves.  I have to do it on a daily basis when logging in, but I always seem to come up with some fun and new to do.   Get up there, and have some fun Sir, you worry too much...

There seems to be a big misconception here, who said I don't like the game?? I LOVE this game, maybe that's why I speak out for it so much. If everyone who ever got annoyed in or with this game quit there would be nobody playing!  LOL!!

 I look at this game like golf. They have a lot of similarities.

It doesn't really cost much to play, but the initial lay out for the tools can get pretty steep(computers, controllers, head gear, vs clubs, bag, shoes, GPS range finder, hand cart w/optional cooler  )

The games are both about you and your control. Make a mistake and you pay for it in either game (here your in the tower, there your in the sand trap/woods/pond).

Personally I play both with a certain amount of honor and respect. (here I don't HO, or run, or tower out my GV, or bail a buff. I give the best fight I can every time. I would think the other player may and SHOULD expect that. With golf sometimes throwing the ball would be easier than hitting it, counting strokes is all honor based, I respect the other players and count on them to count correctly and to not cause problems possible ruining my enjoyment of my round.)

Both games are a lot of fun, and also the most frustrating thing ever devised! ( here I fly all day looking for that one fight where my heart starts pounding and I start sweating, and my hands shake on the stick and finally after what seems like hours of fighting you see that system message we all look for....you have collided  No, the kill message! In golf it's more about that one shot, your swing is smooth, there is no strain in you muscles, the club whizzes around your head and makes contact with the ball and all you hear is that little "click", as you follow through your eyes come up and spot the ball arcing up through the air heading strait towards where you aimed it, bounces once, twice, maybe three times and rolls out that extra yardage toward the green. The rest of the time your dragging your club through the woods looking under the leaves for your ball, or digging gopher holes in the sand traps, or wadding into the ponds up to your knees because your wife won't let you buy any more balls!

Both games have their "gentlemen's rules". ( here hvy buffs drop from high alt and RTB after they drop, fighters don't HO and run, people don't vulch, people don't bomb GV fights that are not going for a capture, People don't spawn camp, people don't drive jeeps inside tanks and shoot the drivers, people don't use 30-40 people to attack a base NOE. With golf, you don't drive up on the foursome in front of you, if your a slow foursome you let the faster player play through, you rake the sand traps after digging in them, you don't move your ball to a better lie, you don't chase the birds with the carts, you don't use one club to get around the course, woods are for driving, irons for getting to the green, and putters to bend around trees    no, putters are for the greens.

For the most part people follow those rules on the course, but can't seem to handle it here. Why is that? More "kids" (mentally and/or physically) playing this game? Maybe seeing as if you step out of line on a course they will be instant repercussions, and this game too many hide behind their internet connection.

I love this game, and every time I log on I have fun eventually  I also know that there is so much more to this game that so many others are just blowing by because they have to win the war before supper time/bedtime. You don't see the "marathon" secessions that we use to have as much any more. Many a time you'd log on to play a couple hours and before you knew it the wife ack was letting you know "what time it was and that you had to work in the morning and she was going to bed so keep it down!" and of course you'd say you'll be along in a minute because you were only going to do one more run.... that turned into15-20 and now you had only 3 hours left before you had to get up to go to work. Other times you'd log off on a Friday night, get 6-8 hours sleep and log on in the morning for a couple quick one only to see half the people you were flying with last night STILL on!

Not any more, and why is that? Maybe because running in the horde for two hours is more than enough "fun" for one night, or maybe fighting the same 30-40 people all of the map as they roll base after base for a couple hours is more than enough "fun", or maybe getting bombed by dive bombing lancs for a couple hours while you where trying to have a GV fight more than enough "fun".

I know I can "find" some fun when I log on, but I'd rather log on and be able to jump into a mission with some objectives other than "flatten everything", or join a fighter sweep that hunts other missions instead of diving in on the biggest horde they can find to get as many kills as they can before being overwhelmed.   

[Traveler]

I’d love to see more strategy required in the game, but I’m unsure how to define a horde.   I was present at a base defending, not very long ago when enemy aircraft began to show up overhead, at altitude.  First there were 4, then 8 soon another 4 or 5, they didn’t arrive all at once, but over time, at what point did they become a horde.  Did they become a horde because they waited to start their attack.  Were they not a horde because , you were one of the attacking P38’s.  I have the film .  I we very surprised because you never fly in a horde.

[EVZ]

Other times you'd log off on a Friday night, get 6-8 hours sleep and log on in the morning for a couple quick one only to see half the people you were flying with last night STILL on!

Not any more, and why is that?

Maybe you've been playing in LW to much? Try MW, definatly a few "Marathons" happening ... and a lot less confusion than LW.

[DMVIAGRA]

Well, 15k for Heavy bombers is a bit ridiculous I might add. 10k is more like it. What about dive bombers, I think Stukas should only be able to drop their bomb (S) at 25k.

[The Fugitive]

I’d love to see more strategy required in the game, but I’m unsure how to define a horde.   I was present at a base defending, not very long ago when enemy aircraft began to show up overhead, at altitude.  First there were 4, then 8 soon another 4 or 5, they didn’t arrive all at once, but over time, at what point did they become a horde.  Did they become a horde because they waited to start their attack.  Were they not a horde because , you were one of the attacking P38’s.  I have the film .  I we very surprised because you never fly in a horde.

I'm not sure which fight your talking about. I do remember your squad trying to take the base south of 40 (I think it was). I was flying with a few guys from the Hell Hawks. It was a pretty even fight with around 5 or 6 on each side. We only held you guys off because you kept coming in in 2s and 3s. After you guys left We pushed for 40 and got it. Then the whole knight nation fell on us and pushed us out.

A horde is a mission group of more than 20 guys. If you can't take a base with 20 guys you should spend more time in the Training arena than flying in the Mains. A number of fights end up lopsided tho. What starts out as a couple of groups like Saturday where you have 5-6 on each side pounding it out ( was a lot of fun btw <S>) can attract attention and the next thing you know you have more help than you need on one side and the other side just walks away.

Thats why I think there should be restrictions added to the game, more rules to provide structure. In Saturdays fight, your squad makes a mission and launches it. ONLY the people in your mission should get points/perks. The same for the defensive force. If other want to join they have to ask, and be included in the "next mission" so they can be awarded points/perk too. If they join with out being part of the mission, they can still kill/bomb, but they don't get the points/perks. This way players who don't care about the points/perks could still jump in if they want, but I'd bet more people worry enough about points and perks to join mission.

Once you have people joining missions either defensive or attack, you'd have to have a leader. Leaders control the missions/defense, and no mission can be more than 20. Put the tactics and strategy back into the game.

[chaser]

...is that players were forced to play as the game was intended.

OK first off I personally don't know how the "game was intended to be played" but by using some logic I can come to some conclusions.

Bombers are meant to bomb. I don't think dive bombing in heavy bombers was ever intended.

Fighters are meant to fight. A HO is not a fight, its a joust, aurgering your plane while dive bombing, or suiciding your fighter to take down the ack I don't think were intended.

GVs are meant to fight and crush building. I don't think spawn camping was intended.

Everyone takes shortcuts these days. In stead of using any kind of skill, they look for the quickest and easiest way to do the same thing saving them selves the trouble of "learning" any skills.

I would like to see intended game play rewarded, and non-intended game play not.

You want to fly in a horde and steam roll bases you get no credit for points or perks, and the base is returned after 5 minutes. This way the horde can work ove the same two bases all night, have all the fun they want, and not bother anyone else. On the other hand If you run a capture mission with 20 players or less and capture the base it stays captured until another force of 20 or less wins it.

Heavy bombers dropping under 15k their bombs just disappear, medium and light bombers the same under 5k. Bailing from a undamaged buff negates all points and damages. On the other hand if you stick it out and fight against the fighters instead of bail you get double the points and perks, land them and you can double them again.

Its sad to see the game turn into nothing but a bunch of people who aurger perfectly good aircraft, bail out of fights, avoid any conflict, dive bomb GV in Lancs. Whats the point of playing a game if your not here to use the equipment as it was intended to be use when it was designed? It's like using a computer as a boat anchor, whats the point?

Not that my wish will ever come true, but it would be nice to have a game that you fought against people from all over the world in WWII type equipment. Fought them in the air, on the ground, for base after base. Instead I guess I'll have to settle for the horde fests. Fly my pony to catch the runners, and if I must join with the horde, fly only cannon planes so I don't get so many assists.

Waiting for the big NOPE...

[SectorNine50]

It's interesting, I feel like teamwork gets bashed in this game all the time.

"Hordes" are a form of teamwork.  If you can get a large group together to take a base, good for you, you are using your team's coordination to your advantage.  But the same solution is available for the defense, and I've seen it done!  It seems to me that when people complain about hordes, it's because they haven't been able to get a group together to defend and counter-attack, and they get sick of being shot down on the runway of the base that's under attack.  Some of the best dogfights I've been in while in this game have been the result of a "horde" coming in, and a defense "horde" flying in from another base to fend them off.  Usually, the defense horde wins and starts pushing towards the attacker's base.  The biggest problem I've seen, is that people are too impatient to build a good defense.

The same thing can be said when someone gets "picked."  People complain about ruined 1v1 fights all the time, but realistically, what's wrong with a teammate helping another teammate?  If one of your teammates was in trouble in a dogfight, would you not help them?

I'm not sure where this "code of honor" comes from, but it seems to be way out-of-whack.  I don't understand why people think that in order to be "honorable," you should take bases in small five man groups.  Use your team if they are willing to help you!  They are there for a reason!  This isn't a free-for-all, there are 3 distinct sides trying to achieve the same goal for their side.

Also, why is it that HOing is considered a sin?  I understand it is pretty lame when it happens to you, but if someone HO's, it's because you let them.  If you don't want to get shot in the face, flipping MOVE!  In a lot of situations, maneuvering around the HO puts you in a superior position on second merge anyway.  How many people in WWII do you think saw an enemy plane flying right at them and didn't react?  Would you bet your life on someone else's "honor?"

All this stuff occurred in real life (maybe minus the Lancstuka, which I agree is a bummer).  I even recall a story of a German pilot flying around shooting pilots in their chutes.  It pissed off an American pilot so much, that he pinged the German plane until he bailed out.  The American then turned around, and returned the favor as the German was in his chute.  Point is, there are pilots with "no honor" in this game, just like there were in real life.  All you can do is beat them at their own game (ie. Kill them...  )

[EVZ]

It's interesting, I feel like teamwork gets bashed in this game all the time. "Hordes" are a form of teamwork.  

Well, it gets bashed in the forums anyway. The Game was OBVIOUSLY structured to REQUIRE teamwork to "win" it and the SQUAD structure helps achieve that goal. So playing the game as "INTENDED" certainly includes teamwork ... The hordes / missions I've flown with were planned and supervised strikes with several elements present and a very specific goal. This all seems to fit into the theme of REALISM and Simulation. I think the BASHING you see taking place is coming mostly from people who would prefer the game be played  NOT AS INTENDED ... who want to feed their egos as lone wolf / super pilot / elitists. The GAME calls itself a SIMULATION, it has all the vital elements required for fairly realistic WWII gameplay.

The Acrobatic Lancasters are a GLARING throwback to earlier, less realistically modeled, planes. It should be HIGH on the priority list to be re-worked. Head On attacks ARE a realistic tactic, the Spitfire / Zeek T&B experts may resent the MUCH leveler playing field enjoyed by the B&Z pilots, but BOTH tactics are realistic and valid and the game could NOT be PLAYED AS INTENDED without them. Fighter Bomber interdiction of GVs in the game is fairly realistic too ... The Tankers may not LIKE the realism, but during the push inland from Normandy ALLIED AIR SUPERIORITY was so great that the Germans limited armor movement to the Night Hours and spent the day in hiding.

To sum it up, most of the complaints I see are from people who don't like the realism and want things changed to make it EASIER on them. 

[The Fugitive]

Well, it gets bashed in the forums anyway. The Game was OBVIOUSLY structured to REQUIRE teamwork to "win" it and the SQUAD structure helps achieve that goal. So playing the game as "INTENDED" certainly includes teamwork ... The hordes / missions I've flown with were planned and supervised strikes with several elements present and a very specific goal. This all seems to fit into the theme of REALISM and Simulation. I think the BASHING you see taking place is coming mostly from people who would prefer the game be played  NOT AS INTENDED ... who want to feed their egos as lone wolf / super pilot / elitists. The GAME calls itself a SIMULATION, it has all the vital elements required for fairly realistic WWII gameplay.

The Acrobatic Lancasters are a GLARING throwback to earlier, less realistically modeled, planes. It should be HIGH on the priority list to be re-worked. Head On attacks ARE a realistic tactic, the Spitfire / Zeek T&B experts may resent the MUCH leveler playing field enjoyed by the B&Z pilots, but BOTH tactics are realistic and valid and the game could NOT be PLAYED AS INTENDED without them. Fighter Bomber interdiction of GVs in the game is fairly realistic too ... The Tankers may not LIKE the realism, but during the push inland from Normandy ALLIED AIR SUPERIORITY was so great that the Germans limited armor movement to the Night Hours and spent the day in hiding.

To sum it up, most of the complaints I see are from people who don't like the realism and want things changed to make it EASIER on them. 

ahhh good, another comparing the GAME to WAR.

Yes in WAR it is a good idea to have an overwhelming force, faster planes, bigger bombs. In WAR the idea is to not let the other guy have a chance to strike back. This however is a game, a game that is suppose to be fun. The more people that have fun, the more people who pay their subscription fee next month.

Yes in WAR there were HO's, but in most cases it was a last resort, because you could really die from it. Personally in real life had I been a pilot in a fight I would have done everything possible to NOT get in front of his guns, even a HO would be too much. But again, this is a game, it's suppose to be fun. On the other hand lets make it more realistic. If you die in a HO, that means the game sees the shot as anything 5-10 degrees off the center line your done flying for the day. How many people would still fly for the HO? would the HO counts go up or down? What would you do, would the HO STILL be a viable shot?

The whole idea I'm trying to get across here is there are many ways to play this game. At this point the VAST majority want to win the war as quickly and easily as possible. They are avoiding all kinds of great toys HTC has added over the years, as well as strategies and tactics that are fun and worth while but unfortunately don't NOT help win the war any faster. I would like HTC to add rules and restrictions to bring these element back into the game, to make them worth while to those players that just buzz right past everything else in this game.

If the game is no longer about fighting against other players around the world they might as well just add the nuke as an option to the B29 and let them have at it.

[SectorNine50]

Aren't these players that are doing all these things, doing these things because it's fun for them?

Does that mean that your fun is worth more than their fun?

More restrictions hardly ever add to fun.

[The Fugitive]

Aren't these players that are doing all these things, doing these things because it's fun for them?

So 30-40 having fun hording is ok negating the fun a bunch of players on the other could have had, but instead log in frustration due to getting run over time and time again?

Sounds like a sound business plan, lets tick off a third of our subscribers each night. That will really bring the money in!. If people aren't having fun they will find other ways to spent that $15 a month. Many have left be cause the game is stale. Sure does get boring chasing the horde all night, or riding in it.

If you play monopoly with the same 4 people every night and the other three go out of their way to take you out first, how many nights are you going to come back?

[pembquist]

What I would like to see is a survey of players to see why people actually play this game and what they like/dislike about it. 

[SectorNine50]

I suppose it depends.  How many people are bothered vs. how many people are having fun?  If for every 30-40 that are having a blast, 3-4 are frustrated, that's actually a really successful MMO.

We here on the forum are the very vocal minority.  It's very difficult to gauge how the player base as a whole really feels the game is playing.  I think it would be rash to start making restrictions to appease what could potentially be the minority.

Perhaps HTC could implement a vote when people log in, "Do you feel 'hordes' affects gameplay negatively?"  Might give us a better idea of the ratio of those having fun to those feeling beat down by hordes.

EDIT:
Ah, someone beat me to it.  Great minds think alike!