Why the Icon Range Change for GV's?

[bmwgs]

Nothing wrong with bombing, rocketing and straffing Gv's IMO.......all part of the game.

There is no such thing as only GV on GV action unless its hidden away in some in accessable area of the map.

I am not a fan of the use of low level formations for the purpose and support stuff like forced F6 use for level bombers/formations.

The subject re interaction of air combat and ground AA is boiling down to details and away from the generality. However the habit of air craft to run and  hide in its own AA was common. Infact many a FW189 or 190F8 ran for its AA as did many an IL2. Radio communication or no, they had been briefed as to where their front lines were and their best egress routes.

+1

I would also add there is nothing wrong with a GV shooting down a low flying plane either.

Fred

[Krusty]

Bullhocky.

There is no way in hell that a mission briefing in WWII would have accurately informed a pilot of the exact locations of his tanks and AA vehicles.  Nor would the use of radio, which as I noted we don't have to simulate with longer ranged icons because we have the radio communications in game.

False argument. And quite biased.

We don't have to radio in to the tower, use specific codes, check codes, call signs, tune to specific frequencies, and THEN have them explain to us exactly what the radar picture looks like.

That's what the clipboard is for. You're getting into minutae. They DID have radios, and we ARE playing a game where folks do not cooperate. The end result is the situational awareness was there, it was possible in reality, but now it is gone from the game.

You cannot support short icons by using any kind of comparison to reality or actual WW2 capabilities, because it is a step backwards from both.

[Oldman731]

The end result is the situational awareness was there, it was possible in reality, but now it is gone from the game.

Can't buy that yet, Krusty.  Air-to-ground communication in WWII just wasn't good enough to mimic what people are talking about here, which, as I understand it, is that a friendly pilot should know within a few hundred yards where his side's ground vehicles are located.  The St. Lo breakout problems, for example, show that the communication just wasn't there even when it was planned out long in advance.  Certainly there was nothing like a Wirblewind talking to an airborne friend and telling him to lure the enemy in closer.

- oldman

[SmokinLoon]

Bullhocky.

There is no way in hell that a mission briefing in WWII would have accurately informed a pilot of the exact locations of his tanks and AA vehicles.  Nor would the use of radio, which as I noted we don't have to simulate with longer ranged icons because we have the radio communications in game.

You don't think that Typhoon pilots that were sent up with ordnance knew ahead of time where allied forces were at?  Not at all?  Not in relation to a specific town?  Not "elements of allied ABC unit have made it to the edge of town X, find enemy targets within town X and assist".  I'd be willing to bet that jabo pilots knew where allied force were at, at least in the vicinity.  Maybe not as specific as a modern day GPS would allow, but they'd know an approximate area.

As I've said before, your concern is valid.  You don't want to get raped by an enemy FLAK, and I dont either.  I think your argument for having a reduced allied gv icon is valid.  What exactly would you suggest it to be?  Exactly the same as enemy gv's and forget %100 the merits of the arguments other have suggested (radio communications, mission briefings, etc)???

[Guppy35]

You don't think that Typhoon pilots that were sent up with ordnance knew ahead of time where allied forces were at?  Not at all?  Not in relation to a specific town?  Not "elements of allied ABC unit have made it to the edge of town X, find enemy targets within town X and assist".  I'd be willing to bet that jabo pilots knew where allied force were at, at least in the vicinity.  Maybe not as specific as a modern day GPS would allow, but they'd know an approximate area.

As I've said before, your concern is valid.  You don't want to get raped by an enemy FLAK, and I dont either.  I think your argument for having a reduced allied gv icon is valid.  What exactly would you suggest it to be?  Exactly the same as enemy gv's and forget %100 the merits of the arguments other have suggested (radio communications, mission briefings, etc)???

They flew in what were called cab ranks, and were essentially on call for ground attack.  The practice was to have a pilot on the ground on the pointy end of the tank column to call in air support when it was found.  They didn't go up knowing exactly where the friendlies were.  That was why marking targets, putting out orange friendly ID panels etc was a big part of the game.  As GV action tended to be fluid, friendly fire was always a big threat as well.

I have in the back of the 428th FS history, the reports on all their missions.  They were a 9th AF ground attack 38 bunch in the ETO.  They flew what are referred to as 'armed recce', meaning they searched for ground targets.  There is not a single reference to going to a specific point to hit armor.  If they found it, they attacked.  They were also under ground control who could send them to an area where the forward air controller could call them in on specific targets.  The targets they went to specifically were bridges, marshaling yards etc. 

[crazyivan]

As it is now I can start slapping an aircraft with a wirble at 1.5k out. Being fair to the flyboys I would like to see a small perk to the wirble when this change happens. I also like the idea of camo for tanks that are stationary from aircraft anyways.

[bmwgs]

Being fair?  

No one has ever been fair when they repeatedly dropped eggs on me.  Now all of a sudden a change is going to be made, so now we have to be fair about it.

So many say that they can see GV's from such a distance, so what is the worry?  I believe the worry is it won't be so easy just to flop in and drop an egg on a GV.  They are actually going to have to work for it.  My, my, isn't that unfair, they might just have to work for it.  

The change has not even happened and people are whining like a bunch of first graders.  No one know how this is going to effect game play, but it sure has them worried.  

My Opinion.

Now back to my Popcorn.

Fred

[Karnak]

Being fair?  

No one has ever been fair when they repeatedly dropped eggs on me.  Now all of a sudden a change is going to be made, so now we have to be fair about it.

In case it escaped your notice, the people saying that hidden death bubbles that enemy aircraft can see and cower in aren't a good thing also are not the people who bombed you.  We're also not saying the icons should be restored.  We're saying that friendlies should have the same icon limitation.  If anything that would make you less likely to be bombed as the aircraft couldn't even tell if you were a friendly or hostile until 600 yards if you aren't moving.  They will need to do a scouting pass before they can bomb you.

[Tank-Ace]

Sorry, haven't been able help defend the GV'ers rights for a bit, we had a nasty storm in Washington State, got about 3ft of snow, freezing rain for about 6 hrs, more snow, and then more freezing rain. Power is just now starting to be restored approximately 32hrs after going out (poor sob's at the PUD are working round the clock too  )

Anyway, first off, its a game. You get an infinite ammount of ords, fighters, bombers, and fuel. You can fight P-51's and La-7's in your spitfires. Fires don't rage through the inside of the carrier and disable takeoffs when a bomb strikes the carrier above where the fuel is stored. You have an instintaneous IFF system out to 6k that can not only give tell you if the aircraft is friendly, but its range, and aircraft model. You guys bomb more tiger II's than were ever produced.

Point is suck it up and quit crying if you have to exert a little effort to stop a GV attack. Its both A) more realistic and B) for the sake of the game as a whole (even if you refuse to see that it is). If flakers get more kills than they did in real life..... well you've killed more Tiger II's than were ever produced, don't get your collective panties in a bunch about it.

If you still feel the need to complain, do nothing but GV for two weeks and then come back and tell us that everything is fine and that the icon range changes give the GV's an unfair advantage.

Krusty, if something doesn't benefit the aircraft, that doesn't mean the people asking for it are selfish and only trying to game the game with it (infact, often the opposite).

[Karnak]

Tank-Ace,

How about you address the actual discussion instead of posting more unrelated crap?  The issue here has nothing to do with anti-GV, unless you feel that limiting the ability to be a hidden bubble of death is an anti-GV thing.

I am sick of flyers hugging friendly Wirbelwinds.  The icon range change is going to make that tactic even more effective.

[R 105]

No tank in the history of the world ever shot down a plane in the air. One of my MOS's from the Army was 19D20 and we were cross trained in all positions in the M60s and M48A5 tanks. If you ever looked through the sight of the main gun you would understand why you can't shoot planes down. I do like the GV icon change good job HTC.

[The Fugitive]

Being fair?  

No one has ever been fair when they repeatedly dropped eggs on me.  Now all of a sudden a change is going to be made, so now we have to be fair about it.

So many say that they can see GV's from such a distance, so what is the worry?  I believe the worry is it won't be so easy just to flop in and drop an egg on a GV.  They are actually going to have to work for it.  My, my, isn't that unfair, they might just have to work for it.  

The change has not even happened and people are whining like a bunch of first graders.  No one know how this is going to effect game play, but it sure has them worried.  

My Opinion.

Now back to my Popcorn.

Fred

Be careful Fred, that almost sounds like your wanting people to play the game YOUR way! 

[caldera]

Tank-Ace,

How about you address the actual discussion instead of posting more unrelated crap?  The issue here has nothing to do with anti-GV, unless you feel that limiting the ability to be a hidden bubble of death is an anti-GV thing.

I am sick of flyers hugging friendly Wirbelwinds.  The icon range change is going to make that tactic even more effective.

That and Wirbles camping runways will be more prevalent.  Is the icon range the same from the tower as from the air?

Just a hypothetical but: a stationary WW camping 800 yards from the runway could not be seen from the tower.  The base is flashing and two enemy cons are over the town.  You start rolling down the runway and get shredded by the WW.  Kind of like the devil you know (51s hovering over the field) is better than the devil you don't.  Kind of impractical to spawn a storch before every sortie to see if it's safe to take off.

I don't care if tanks have no icons at all.  Flaks should have their icons increased, if anything.  That would be no less realistic than the Storch having double the icon range of other aircraft. 

[bmwgs]

Be careful Fred, that almost sounds like your wanting people to play the game YOUR way! 

Naw, I put my normal disclaimer at the end "My Opinion".   

 

Fred

[Karnak]

That and Wirbles camping runways will be more prevalent.  Is the icon range the same from the tower as from the air?

Just a hypothetical but: a stationary WW camping 800 yards from the runway could not be seen from the tower.  The base is flashing and two enemy cons are over the town.  You start rolling down the runway and get shredded by the WW.  Kind of like the devil you know (51s hovering over the field) is better than the devil you don't.  Kind of impractical to spawn a storch before every sortie to see if it's safe to take off.

I don't care if tanks have no icons at all.  Flaks should have their icons increased, if anything.  That would be no less realistic than the Storch having double the icon range of other aircraft. 

While your scenario sucks, I don't think the icon ranges should be extended and am perfectly willing to see how the new system plays out, except for the fact that friendlies have a magical ten times icon range on their death bubble generators.