KI-84 ? Is it Dissed?

[Slash27]

I thought I had a copy of that and another for the Ki-44, but they had both English and Japanese text. They are in storage after my last move. I'll go check, I need an excuse to get out of the house anyway.

I was mistaken.

[Gaston]

Although the Ki-84 is one of the three planes that can beat every prop plane in game if flown properly.

Ki-84, F4U-4, and Spit16 will outfly practically everything else assuming the pilot is top notch, though I've yet to see the "mythical" unbeatable pilot. (yes, I've heard about Kazaa, Grizz and others, I just haven't seen them ).

  Aircrafts that in real-life could outfly (I assume here meaning out-turning in some form) any other are probably not the ones everyone expect, and certainly don't include real-life boom and zoom obsessed specialists like the Spitfire... (That is, if you have read any number of mid-late war Spitfire combat accounts: The Russians tried to remove the outer machine guns to help it match their usual horizontal turn tactics, to no avail, and then had to boom and zoom with them just like everybody else: Source: "Fana de l'aviation" #496, p. 40).

   As for the Ki-84...:

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  "Aeroplane" November 2005, "Ki-100 fighter Database" p. 61-77. (16 full pages on the Ki-100, with remarkable details, including on the development of the projected high-altitude turbo-charged variant)

Quote : P. 76:

"At these schools, the cream of the IJAAF's instructors, all very experienced combat pilots, would give their opinion on the new fighter (Ki-100). Almost all the Akeno instructors were graduates of the 54th Class of the Army Air Academy and also highly-qualified sentai commanders in their own right.

During March and April they would fly the Ki-100 in comparison tests against the most capable Japanese fighter then in service, the Ki-84 "Frank". After extensive testing the conclusion drawn by the Akeno pilots left little to the imagination.

In short, it stated that given equally skilled pilots, the Ki-100 would ALWAYS win a fight with the Ki-84 in any one-to-one combat. They further added that in a combat situation with up to three Ki-84s, the Ki-100 pilot could still develop the battle to his advantage.

The results of the evaluations at the Hitachi school were just as clear-cut. Captain Yasuro Mazaki and captain Toyoshia Komatso,also both graduates of the 54th class, developed the combat evaluation situations for the new fighter, and in order to give an unbiaised opinion of the aircraft, they swapped aircraft after each engagements and attempted combat from the opposite standpoint.

In the first combat the Ki-100 was flown against a single Ki-84 with the Ki-100 winning outright.

Mazaki stated: "When we entered combat with the Ki-100 taking the height advantage, the Ki-100 won every time. Even with an altitude disadvantage the Ki-100 could hold down the Ki-84 in two or three climbs during the exercise"

He added that the Ki-84 was "only superior to the Ki-100 in diving speed. The Ki-100 was much better in the turn and while climbing."

P. 77. "The maneuverability of the Ki-100 was the best of the Army's frontline fighters with the exception of the Ki-43... And it had a strong advantage in that even less experienced pilots could fly it easily and fight with it."

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   So much for the predictability of real-life outcomes...

   Gaston

[Slade]

He added that the Ki-84 was "only superior to the Ki-100 in diving speed. The Ki-100 was much better in the turn and while climbing."

P. 77. "The maneuverability of the Ki-100 was the best of the Army's frontline fighters with the exception of the Ki-43... And it had a strong advantage in that even less experienced pilots could fly it easily and fight with it."

Wow.  Been asking for the Ki-100 for some time (and Ki-43 of course). 

[nrshida]

This report has been discredited Gaston, much as I love the Ki-100 also.

[nrshida]

I am assured fervently by DrZeus that the Ki-84 is a noob's plane. Although he claimed he never flies it, because that would be hypocritical. I suggested he tries it for a tour, that he might find it more difficult in the MA than his P-38. I did not mean more difficult to fly (although in my humble opinion that depends on how hard you push it), I meant more difficult to be 'successful' in. My point was not well received 

[Bruv119]

don't mind ole stormdoggy shida,

he grabs the P40 then flies with a gang of friends at altitude, then proceeds to pick fights with it and uses the ENY of his ride as a poor excuse to make up for the shame.  That being said he always gives as good as he gets,  just needs to learn that he can't control what other players do with their time much like debrody.

[ink]

I am assured fervently by DrZeus that the Ki-84 is a noob's plane. Although he claimed he never flies it, because that would be hypocritical. I suggested he tries it for a tour, that he might find it more difficult in the MA than his P-38. I did not mean more difficult to fly (although in my humble opinion that depends on how hard you push it), I meant more difficult to be 'successful' in. My point was not well received  

someone don't remember who...after I smoked him in a spit 16 1vs1 in MA....told me I should stop flying the easiest plane in game..... and learn how to fight.....


asked him to come to DA with me.....no response to that  

[Ack-Ack]

 Aircrafts that in real-life could outfly (I assume here meaning out-turning in some form) any other are probably not the ones everyone expect, and certainly don't include real-life boom and zoom obsessed specialists like the Spitfire... (That is, if you have read any number of mid-late war Spitfire combat accounts: The Russians tried to remove the outer machine guns to help it match their usual horizontal turn tactics, to no avail, and then had to boom and zoom with them just like everybody else: Source: "Fana de l'aviation" #496, p. 40).

   As for the Ki-84...:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  "Aeroplane" November 2005, "Ki-100 fighter Database" p. 61-77. (16 full pages on the Ki-100, with remarkable details, including on the development of the projected high-altitude turbo-charged variant)

Quote : P. 76:

"At these schools, the cream of the IJAAF's instructors, all very experienced combat pilots, would give their opinion on the new fighter (Ki-100). Almost all the Akeno instructors were graduates of the 54th Class of the Army Air Academy and also highly-qualified sentai commanders in their own right.

During March and April they would fly the Ki-100 in comparison tests against the most capable Japanese fighter then in service, the Ki-84 "Frank". After extensive testing the conclusion drawn by the Akeno pilots left little to the imagination.

In short, it stated that given equally skilled pilots, the Ki-100 would ALWAYS win a fight with the Ki-84 in any one-to-one combat. They further added that in a combat situation with up to three Ki-84s, the Ki-100 pilot could still develop the battle to his advantage.

The results of the evaluations at the Hitachi school were just as clear-cut. Captain Yasuro Mazaki and captain Toyoshia Komatso,also both graduates of the 54th class, developed the combat evaluation situations for the new fighter, and in order to give an unbiaised opinion of the aircraft, they swapped aircraft after each engagements and attempted combat from the opposite standpoint.

In the first combat the Ki-100 was flown against a single Ki-84 with the Ki-100 winning outright.

Mazaki stated: "When we entered combat with the Ki-100 taking the height advantage, the Ki-100 won every time. Even with an altitude disadvantage the Ki-100 could hold down the Ki-84 in two or three climbs during the exercise"

He added that the Ki-84 was "only superior to the Ki-100 in diving speed. The Ki-100 was much better in the turn and while climbing."

P. 77. "The maneuverability of the Ki-100 was the best of the Army's frontline fighters with the exception of the Ki-43... And it had a strong advantage in that even less experienced pilots could fly it easily and fight with it."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   So much for the predictability of real-life outcomes...

   Gaston

Ahhh...Gaston the failed game maker with no concept of physics or aerodynamics that hasn't even played the game is back.  Have you come back to tell us again how you think the flight model is messed up?  


ack-ack

[Krusty]

Unfortunately Krusty, your woefully inadequate command of logic is demonstrated by your activity in this thread. You do not have evidence to support your claim, only a lack of evidence of the counter claim.

Completely unfounded speculation, as usual.

Wrong. I've read commentary on it in a number of places and seen the post-war photos, noted the locations of the airfields, looked a few up on maps, and so on and so forth. What is pure 100% speculation is that the 4x20mm variant ever saw combat. So far there isn't 1 shred of evidence that suggests it did. There is wishing and guessing and hoping.

You want a super cannon plane, that's all. Doesn't matter to you whether it saw action or not, you just want your super cannon plane, because you're a japanophile and love japanese planes. It's understandable, but just be honest about it.

[Ack-Ack]

I believe the 183rd Shimbutai and 57th Shimbutai flew a small number of the 4x 20mm equipped Ki-84-Ib.


ack-ack

[Krusty]

I believe the 183rd Shimbutai and 57th Shimbutai flew a small number of the 4x 20mm equipped Ki-84-Ib.


ack-ack

Define "operated" ?

Because a few airframes were with the unit -- does that mean they flew them in combat? Does that mean they were training pilots on them? Does that mean they were evaluating them (Japanese seem to do that -- send a small token number for field evaluations -- throughout the war)?

Fact is there's no record any of them saw combat, that anybody has been able to provide or concoct in all of 15-20 years that this debate has been raging on.

In August 1945 183rd Shimbutai was stationed in Tatebayashi smack dab in the center of the homeland. About as far away from Manchuria as you could get at the end of the war.

57th Shimbutai was even further away, all the way south on Kyushu.

[nrshida]

Wrong. I've read commentary on it in a number of places and seen the post-war photos, noted the locations of the airfields, looked a few up on maps, and so on and so forth. What is pure 100% speculation is that the 4x20mm variant ever saw combat. So far there isn't 1 shred of evidence that suggests it did. There is wishing and guessing and hoping.

There is no evidence it saw combat, and no evidence that it didn't. There won't be any either, we have to make educated suppositions, like observing dirty gunports and exhaust ejecta of aircraft in squadron paint. But I don't expect to convince you, you are entitled to your opinion of course.

You want a super cannon plane, that's all. Doesn't matter to you whether it saw action or not, you just want your super cannon plane, because you're a japanophile and love japanese planes. It's understandable, but just be honest about it.

Untrue. I'm not a Japanophile and I only like 2 Japanese planes. I like the Hayate because I fly it in Aces High and the Ki-100 because I've seen & touched the last one.

Further, if you took the trouble to read this thread carefully and set aside your prejudices then you'll see I'm fairly ambivalent towards the Otsu. Truth to be told I'd much rather have the Westland Whirlwind added to Aces High.

[Ack-Ack]

Define "operated" ?

Because a few airframes were with the unit -- does that mean they flew them in combat? Does that mean they were training pilots on them? Does that mean they were evaluating them (Japanese seem to do that -- send a small token number for field evaluations -- throughout the war)?

Fact is there's no record any of them saw combat, that anybody has been able to provide or concoct in all of 15-20 years that this debate has been raging on.

In August 1945 183rd Shimbutai was stationed in Tatebayashi smack dab in the center of the homeland. About as far away from Manchuria as you could get at the end of the war.

57th Shimbutai was even further away, all the way south on Kyushu.

Both units were used primarily for the defense of the home islands and squadrons did see action defending Japan from Allied attacks.  Some pilot of the 57th Shimbutai even took part in the defense of Okinawa.  How many Ki-84-Ibs did they receive?  Not sure, as the only reference to these two squadrons receiving them was "a small number".  If they did receive them, I wouldn't be surprised it was a small number used for evaluations.


ack-ack

[icepac]

Certainly more than the p63.

[nrshida]

The Ki-84 was further 'dissed' today by another P-38 pilot who explained by way of PM (that was initially addressed FU, but I assume that was a typo and he meant NR), that it was an 'dweeb plane' and that's all I could fly. I am now seeing a tenuous pattern emerging but can't quite piece it together yet.