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Author Topic: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed  (Read 9488 times)

Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #60 on: November 21, 2012, 08:31:55 AM »
Quote from: EagleDNY on November 03, 2012, 12:58:02 PM
Glad people are still working on this (as time allows).  I fly the Ki-84 a lot and would love to read the actual manual for it.

That said, the US did capture one and do testing on it.   Does anyone have a link to the report or a copy of it?   

This one?

http://www.flight-manuals.com/kihaf.html
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... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline EagleDNY

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #61 on: November 22, 2012, 11:38:41 AM »
Quote from: Scherf on November 21, 2012, 08:31:55 AM
This one?

http://www.flight-manuals.com/kihaf.html

That looks like it!  Thanks.  It should be an interesting read.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2012, 02:28:30 PM »
Awww $15  :cry
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2012, 03:25:50 PM »
I suppose you guys have all seen this? Sorry if I'm going over old ground - is this the one with US fuel performance figures?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-84-156A.pdf
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... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2012, 03:30:05 PM »
No I had not seen that, and I can report that the armour plate is clearly missing from my HTC Nakajima  :mad:

Which way to the bugs section?  :old:

Thank you Scherf, for posting that  :salute
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 03:34:50 PM by nrshida »
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #65 on: November 28, 2012, 04:44:47 PM »
No worries.

(BTW, from the other thread, I don't ride a motorcycle, but I'd just seen that slogan on the front of an enormous Volvo tractor-trailer.)
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... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2012, 06:41:39 PM »
Quote from: Scherf on November 28, 2012, 04:44:47 PM
(BTW, from the other thread, I don't ride a motorcycle,

It's probably for the best, with all those Volvos around!  :old:
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Offline Scherf

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2012, 06:53:29 PM »
Heheheh, that one in particular was gigantic.
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... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2012, 05:30:05 PM »
Quote from: Scherf on November 28, 2012, 03:25:50 PM
I suppose you guys have all seen this? Sorry if I'm going over old ground - is this the one with US fuel performance figures?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Ki-84-156A.pdf

US tests were conducted with 92 octane fuel.  Although in limited supply, Japanese did have 92 avgas during Frank's service.

100 avgas wouldn't change much either, since there's no evidence that test aircraft was modified in a way that would increase performance due to better fuel.


So, why such a performance difference with AH Frank?  Probably because AH numbers are from Japanese manuals based on performance numbers of pre-production aircraft.

Since AH is not simulating build quality nor supply shortages, Frank's performance should be adjusted to more reasonable production aircraft figures.
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Offline JUGgler

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2012, 11:33:02 PM »
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 09, 2012, 05:30:05 PM
US tests were conducted with 92 octane fuel.  Although in limited supply, Japanese did have 92 avgas during Frank's service.

100 avgas wouldn't change much either, since there's no evidence that test aircraft was modified in a way that would increase performance due to better fuel.


So, why such a performance difference with AH Frank?  Probably because AH numbers are from Japanese manuals based on performance numbers of pre-production aircraft.

Since AH is not simulating build quality nor supply shortages, Frank's performance should be adjusted to more reasonable production aircraft figures.


This would promote much crying I suspect, but I agree  :cheers:



JUGgler
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2012, 03:42:44 AM »
Unfortunately we do not have the version in Aces High that the US tested. That version already had some improvements to both engine and airframe. Emergency production versions aside, we have the 'poorest' performer (although there's not much in it).

As far as I'm aware higher octane fuel will improve the power output up to the point where timing and compression become an issue. There is no evidence that the US altered the engines but the performance exceeds the figures given by Nakajima.



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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2012, 01:04:31 PM »
Quote from: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 03:42:44 AM
Unfortunately we do not have the version in Aces High that the US tested.

We don't have a version Japanese tested either, which was pre-production aircraft.

Quote from: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 03:42:44 AM
As far as I'm aware higher octane fuel will improve the power output up to the point where timing and compression become an issue.

It won't, because there's no difference between low and high octane fuel in terms of energy. The only difference is anti-knocking capability.
You have to modify power plant to benefit from use of higher octane fuel, e.g. increase of manifold pressure...

Besides, in US test, 92 octane fuel was used (not 100 nor 120). True, towards the end of war, 92 octane was in short supply, but so was any type of fuel Japanese used.


Quote from: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 03:42:44 AM
There is no evidence that the US altered the engines but the performance exceeds the figures given by Nakajima.

Yes, by quite a margin. We also know why.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2012, 02:08:41 PM »
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 11, 2012, 01:04:31 PM
We don't have a version Japanese tested either, which was pre-production aircraft.

We do however have Nakajima's output and weight figures for all of the versions.


Quote from: 2bighorn on December 11, 2012, 01:04:31 PM
It won't, because there's no difference between low and high octane fuel in terms of energy. The only difference is anti-knocking capability.
You have to modify power plant to benefit from use of higher octane fuel, e.g. increase of manifold pressure...

Yes, but that assumes the engine was designed for a lower octane fuel but I don't think that is the case. I believe the American fuel simply allowed the engine to approach its maximum performance.


Quote from: 2bighorn on December 11, 2012, 01:04:31 PM
Yes, by quite a margin. We also know why.

I'm a bit confused as to your point Bighorn, you are saying the pair of aircraft tested in the Philippines had their engines modified by the Americans?



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Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2012, 02:50:53 PM »
Quote from: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
Yes, but that assumes the engine was designed for a lower octane fuel but I don't think that is the case. I believe the American fuel simply allowed the engine to approach its maximum performance.

The engine was designed to use Japanese fuel they had at the time. The US tests were conducted with 92 octane fuel, Japanese had 92 octane fuel and they used it too.

Quote from: nrshida on December 11, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
I'm a bit confused as to your point Bighorn, you are saying the pair of aircraft tested in the Philippines had their engines modified by the Americans?

My statement was in regard to difference in performance figures, nothing else.


Now, what I'd like to see, if we have Ki-84-Ia in game, I'd like it to perform as Ki-84-Ia and not as Ki-84-a/b.

We should at least account for performance changes due to thrust augmentation which was good for 10mph in speed increase.
That is, our AH Frank should hit 400mph.


On the other hand, we have performance figures for Ki-84-Ia with Ha-45 type 21 from US tests. We should use those, because they are more reliable figures than figures used now for AH Frank (no guesswork needed).

  
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84 Pilot's Manual - Translation Help Needed
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2012, 03:11:14 PM »
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 11, 2012, 02:50:53 PM
Now, what I'd like to see, if we have Ki-84-Ia in game, I'd like it to perform as Ki-84-Ia and not as Ki-84-a/b.

I don't know what a Ki-84-a/b is nor the thrust augmentation you refer to. Do you mean the different exhaust arrangements?


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