Author Topic: Penn State report  (Read 5970 times)

Offline kilo2

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2012, 02:19:07 PM »
If the same individuals involved are still working at Penn State, the entire football program should be banned from playing.

If Penn State wants to fire them and announce a letter of condemnation against Paterno, it would be a different story altogether. Until that happens, the 'precious' football program can suffer.

No I do not agree. Overreaching because your emotions are ruling your judgment. Like I said just burn the place to the ground if it would make you feel better.

People should pay for their crimes not the entire college.

No...... because if you have an idea something like this is happening you report it and let the authorities handle it. You don't hide it so you or your group do not look bad and you can continue raking in money. The "machine", those in the know and those reaping the benefit though ignorance, should bear the brunt of the penalty. The "machine" being those that blindly say "we are penn state" believing that makes everything ok.

No you don't hide but the entire college should not pay for individuals crimes. You missed my point it is impossible for someone to just know, without proof that someone is a criminal.
You act as if the entire college knew about this and just did not say anything.
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Offline Delirium

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2012, 02:24:52 PM »
I'm done with the thread, before Skuzzy brings out the ban hammer.


Just like before I know I will be proven correct in time.
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2012, 02:29:05 PM »
I'm done with the thread, before Skuzzy brings out the ban hammer.


Just like before I know I will be proven correct in time.

That is probably for the best because it is obvious you cannot detach your emotions from your opinion.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2012, 02:29:26 PM »
No I do not agree. Overreaching because your emotions are ruling your judgment. Like I said just burn the place to the ground if it would make you feel better.

People should pay for their crimes not the entire college.

No you don't hide but the entire college should not pay for individuals crimes. You missed my point it is impossible for someone to just know, without proof that someone is a criminal.
You act as if the entire college knew about this and just did not say anything.

The college is just as at fault for their blind faith following, don't rock the boat attitude. As it turns out there were quite a few who knew about the issue (some first hand) and several who feared saying anything because of this blind faith.


BTW I must commend you and the others who have posted on this thread and kept it on the up and up. By doing so I understand your thoughts and I just disagree. It does not make one any more right than the other. All good opinions. It will be interesting to see where all this will end at penn state.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 02:33:43 PM by Shuffler »
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #64 on: July 17, 2012, 02:30:02 PM »
The college is just as at fault for their blind faith following, don't rock the boat attitude.

Well that is one opinion.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #65 on: July 17, 2012, 02:35:29 PM »
Well that is one opinion.

Yes.... at penn state it enabled the enablers.
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Offline BreakingBad

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #66 on: July 17, 2012, 02:40:09 PM »
Because we don't punish large groups of people who had nothing to do with harboring a criminal.

If a guy robs a bank and runs to hide in his apartment do you charge everyone living in the same complex with harboring a fugitive?

I understand what you are trying to say, however the example isn't apples to apples.

Punitive punishment is defined as imposing a negative on a person/group/organization, etc.  In this case closing the football program at Penn State is imposing a punishment on the institution.  

Now while the players can no longer play for Penn State, there is no punishment imposed on them individually that precludes them from going to another school to play, or opting not to play at all.

Also, there are numerous cases where a business receives a steep fine or is forced out of business due to legal action.  While it may be the CEO or Board of Trustees committed the offense, there will be many middle level workers who did nothing wrong legally and unfortunately be affected through no fault of there own (Enron).

This would be a closer analogy for the football players themselves.  While they committed no crime, their organization did.



  

Offline Nathan60

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #67 on: July 17, 2012, 02:42:47 PM »
I'm done with the thread, before Skuzzy brings out the ban hammer.


Just like before I know I will be proven correct in time.

Im sure those responisble will be punsihed aswell  but a blanket statment like hang em all or hang just some of them" really isnt sporting to claim as vindicatition of being correct. Is a totally unque situation and  those responible will be punished  but this  isnt about a simple athlete taking movie tickets from a booster amnd the team covering it up and I find it scandolus you would  equate the two as such.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 02:47:56 PM by Nathan60 »
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #68 on: July 17, 2012, 02:47:35 PM »
I understand what you are trying to say, however the example isn't apples to apples.

Punitive punishment is defined as imposing a negative on a person/group/organization, etc.  In this case closing the football program at Penn State is imposing a punishment on the institution.  

Now while the players can no longer play for Penn State, there is no punishment imposed on them individually that precludes them from going to another school to play, or opting not to play at all.

Also, there are numerous cases where a business receives a steep fine or is forced out of business due to legal action.  While it may be the CEO or Board of Trustees committed the offense, there will be many middle level workers who did nothing wrong legally and unfortunately be affected through no fault of there own (Enron).

This would be a closer analogy for the football players themselves.  While they committed no crime, their organization did.



  

Yeah I considered using a ceo and group of board members as an example. Then I remembered that they get fined so hard they collapse and mid level dude get shafted.

I do not think this is the best way to handle this situation.
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Offline Nathan60

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #69 on: July 17, 2012, 02:58:28 PM »
OK  if anyone can answer  why a person that was one to five years old at the time the incident happend and the cover up was put in place, should be culpable I will throw my hat in with the whole "close the program crowd" but  I will also have to accept that I too am a part of the Roswell cover  up  by default then as the goverment is perpitarating the cover up and I am not blowing the whistle on it  :aok
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 03:01:19 PM by Nathan60 »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #70 on: July 17, 2012, 04:05:07 PM »
OK  if anyone can answer  why a person that was one to five years old at the time the incident happend and the cover up was put in place, should be culpable I will throw my hat in with the whole "close the program crowd" but  I will also have to accept that I too am a part of the Roswell cover  up  by default then as the goverment is perpitarating the cover up and I am not blowing the whistle on it  :aok

They are not culpable but they are caught in the middle. They are going to the school/business that created/enabled the problem. You might understand that this has been happening for years. I believe I read where as recently as 2008 it was still happening.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 04:07:17 PM by Shuffler »
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Offline BreakingBad

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #71 on: July 17, 2012, 04:39:46 PM »
OK  if anyone can answer  why a person that was one to five years old at the time the incident happend and the cover up was put in place, should be culpable I will throw my hat in with the whole "close the program crowd" but  I will also have to accept that I too am a part of the Roswell cover  up  by default then as the goverment is perpitarating the cover up and I am not blowing the whistle on it  :aok

The players, and fans for that matter, are not guilty or culpable, but neither can it be said they would be punished per se by closing the program. 

The players will have the freedom to  transfer and play for another college or continue to attend the university and get an education.  They just won't be able to play football for Penn State.  In light of the severity of the crimes, denying some kids or fans of their 'football fun' seems paltry.

The punishment for Penn State, and in particular the football program needs to be severe, and one which affects the bottom line $$.  Let's face it, football programs make a great deal of money for universities.  It is this very culture of elitism that made some feel above the law and tenets of basic morality.   

To only give a slap on the wrist so to speak, does not provide the disincentive to other programs or organizations.  Now a 2-5 year suspension of the program, well that will darn sure motivate other organizations to keep their programs in order.


Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2012, 05:08:43 PM »
The penn state problem, other than children being molested on school grounds, also included turning a blind eye towards players on and off campus illegal activities.

Penn State has traditionally had a lot less of that than most schools. Entirely apart from the Sandusky business I think Paterno was starting to lose control and judgment the last few years and players were getting away with more. Even if there had never been a Jerry Sandusky Paterno should have retired more than a decade ago.

As to the question of sanctions, the thing is, the problem at Penn State was NOT just a matter of a few individuals, it was a problem of institutional leadership and culture. The football team was a law unto itself with Paterno as the god-emperor. That is how and why the Sandusky affair played out the way it did. At any sane school the school leadership would have told Paterno what to do, not the other way around, and would have placed protecting the victims above success on the field. It's because of that worship and pursuit of success at any cost that this whole thing happened. THAT is why it is a problem for the whole program and not just the individuals involved - because everything they did, they did to ensure the success of the football team on the field. So in a way, the players DID benefit.

And yes, every other school with a big successful football program is the same way. This would have played out the same way at any of them if the coach had made the same bad decision. That is one reason it has to be punished. Change has to start somewhere and a line has to be drawn for everyone.

Yes, it's a shame for current players to suffer for sins of past leaders but that's how the world works. If the company you work for dumped toxic waste illegally 20 years ago and it's discovered today when it starts making kids sick at a school unknowingly built on top of the dump site, the company will be sued into bankruptcy and everyone who works there will be out of a job even if they had nothing to do with the crime. That's tough but the alternative is letting the company get away with a crime that was committed in order to make profits for the company. The individuals responsible weren't just acting on their own behalf, they were acting on behalf of the company they were in charge of, so the company is responsible. Likewise the leadership at Penn State.

The NCAA has to show that this sort of culture is intolerable and the school has got to show that it is not a football team with a school attached, it is an educational institution that is much more important than any football game and can survive with or without football. One year death penalty at a minimum - two or even four would be better - and the statue must come down. Students currently on scholarship should be allowed to transfer without penalty or stay on scholarship at Penn State without playing. The rest of the athletic department shouldn't be punished apart from the loss of revenue, they have no control over the almighty football team. Needless to say, Spanier, Schultz, and Curley should and probably will go to jail.

Offline Nathan60

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2012, 05:15:31 PM »
They are not culpable but they are caught in the middle. They are going to the school/business that created/enabled the problem. You might understand that this has been happening for years. I believe I read where as recently as 2008 it was still happening.

That's funny since Sandusky retired in 1999 sure the cover up that was in place since the 90's was still in place but the guys in the middle didnt know that
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Offline Nathan60

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Re: Penn State report
« Reply #74 on: July 17, 2012, 05:16:45 PM »
The players, and fans for that matter, are not guilty or culpable, but neither can it be said they would be punished per se by closing the program.  

The players will have the freedom to  transfer and play for another college or continue to attend the university and get an education.  They just won't be able to play football for Penn State.  In light of the severity of the crimes, denying some kids or fans of their 'football fun' seems paltry.

The punishment for Penn State, and in particular the football program needs to be severe, and one which affects the bottom line $$.  Let's face it, football programs make a great deal of money for universities.  It is this very culture of elitism that made some feel above the law and tenets of basic morality.  

To only give a slap on the wrist so to speak, does not provide the disincentive to other programs or organizations.  Now a 2-5 year suspension of the program, well that will darn sure motivate other organizations to keep their programs in order.


And what of all the OTHER sports at Penn State that depend on that revenue from football? are they in the middle aswell? Sanctions yes  but not a death penalty. But the NCAA regulatory committee has been a joke since the OSU flare up and this may just be the last straw  and since there isn't 4 PSU alum  on the board I think they will in fact make a statement with Penn State. I just wont agree with the death penalty, at a school that until recently has had a good record. Yes they completely dropped the ball and yes players can go elsewhere but playing at Leigh or Furman isnt going to get you the education you worked for  at Penn State.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 05:24:07 PM by Nathan60 »
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