Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%

[Maverick]

What gangs and other criminals can get psychopaths can as well. There is no "criminal ID card" needed to gain objects illegally. Why would you think someone bent on killing people is not going to be able to get what they want merely because they do not have a criminal background beforehand? As far as the bomb components are concerned in the incidents I mentioned are concerned I really don't know. I do know that the assembly of them is illegal. The use of them in that manner certainly is. Then again someone who is bent on murder is already ignoring a law anyhow so breaking a few others is hardly a concern.

[nrshida]

Oh bollocks. 


You know you're always welcome to come kill some inanimate objects with me.

 

[TonyJoey]

What gangs and other criminals can get psychopaths can as well. There is no "criminal ID card" needed to gain objects illegally. Why would you think someone bent on killing people is not going to be able to get what they want merely because they do not have a criminal background beforehand? As far as the bomb components are concerned in the incidents I mentioned are concerned I really don't know. I do know that the assembly of them is illegal. The use of them in that manner certainly is. Then again someone who is bent on murder is already ignoring a law anyhow so breaking a few others is hardly a concern.

I've noticed a common theme in these rampages; legally acquired, illegally used. That's why I continue making a big deal about the background of these people. They use the tools available to them. Even the tear gas Holmes used is legal in Colorado.

Messa- You made the point about being able to acquire an illegal weapon right now if you wanted to. You have to admit Aurora, Colorado is not Philadelphia, Pennsylvania crime-wise.

WW- To my credit, I have referred to them correctly as standard-capacity magazine ever since. 

[nrshida]

I think TonyJoey has done a splendid job of trying to think of a solution and has argued his case in the spirit of good debate and without resorting to derision or insult.  to you young man.

[grizz441]

I've noticed a common theme in these rampages; legally acquired, illegally used. That's why I continue making a big deal about the background of these people. They use the tools available to them. Even the tear gas Holmes used is legal in Colorado.

Messa- You made the point about being able to acquire an illegal weapon right now if you wanted to. You have to admit Aurora, Colorado is not Philadelphia, Pennsylvania crime-wise.

WW- To my credit, I have referred to them correctly as standard-capacity magazine ever since.  

I'm kind of on the fence about these automatic weapons.  I think they should certainly be legal, but should require a more rigorous licensing process.  What specifically that is, I don't know, but I think being a member of a gun club, logging a certain number of hours, getting gun club professionals to sign off on you, is a starting point.  

On the flip side of it, I don't think there will ever be a solution to stopping these massacres.  There will always be a way with months of planning, like the colorado shooter had, to kill dozens of people.  Taking away personal liberties is not the way to go.  One thing I do think that can be learned from this is if the red flagging system can be improved.  From the sounds of it, there were a lot of red flags just based off his ammunition/gun purchasing habits.  

By the way JT, it's easy to get sucked into the American "Life is A Rainbow" fantasy, but the world is a dangerous, unstable place.  Disarming a society does not make you safer.

[mtnman]

I've noticed a common theme in these rampages; legally acquired, illegally used. That's why I continue making a big deal about the background of these people. They use the tools available to them. Even the tear gas Holmes used is legal in Colorado.

Yup, that's true.  That's a common theme in a lot of wrongful deaths.

Take alcohol and motor vehicles...  Legally purchased, but used illegally (drinking and driving), results in many, many deaths, and would be a logical choice to go after if we wanted to ban something to potentially save a bunch of lives.  I'd even go so far as to say that if someone INTENTIONALLY bought alcohol and then chose to drive, the results of that intentional decision should be classified as intentional as well...

If it were up to me, drunk driving deaths would be classified as (or very close to) murder.

So, what do we ban in this instance?  Alcohol?  Or motor vehicles?  Maybe certain container sizes of alcohol?  Or horsepower of vehicles?

Obviously, the vast majority of alcohol drinkers and motor vehicle users are probably using those items legally, but a few aren't...  Is the logical choice to ban the item, or look at the individual person as the problem?

"Solving" the drunk driving issue would save far more people than "solving" the magazine-size argument.

[grizz441]

Yup, that's true.  That's a common theme in a lot of wrongful deaths.

Take alcohol and motor vehicles...  Legally purchased, but used illegally (drinking and driving), results in many, many deaths, and would be a logical choice to go after if we wanted to ban something to potentially save a bunch of lives.  I'd even go so far as to say that if someone INTENTIONALLY bought alcohol and then chose to drive, the results of that intentional decision should be classified as intentional as well...

If it were up to me, drunk driving deaths would be classified as (or very close to) murder.

So, what do we ban in this instance?  Alcohol?  Or motor vehicles?  Maybe certain container sizes of alcohol?  Or horsepower of vehicles?

Obviously, the vast majority of alcohol drinkers and motor vehicle users are probably using those items legally, but a few aren't...  Is the logical choice to ban the item, or look at the individual person as the problem?

"Solving" the drunk driving issue would save far more people than "solving" the magazine-size argument.

That is a wonderful analogy sir. 

[TonyJoey]

<snip>

Never have I, nor will I, propose and support a measure to ban all assault rifles. I'm proposing a limit to 15 round magazines, which would not affect hunting, self-defense, or collecting.

One more point about the idea that these people will find ways to acquire illegal weapons to aid their rampages. Are fully-automatic weapons (registered after 1986) illegal? Why are fully-automatic weapons not showing up at the sites of these rampages?

Shida- I appreciate it, sir.

Mtn- Yes, solving the drunk driving issue would save far more people than solving the magazine size argument. But the solution would be at the cost of much more liberty.

[ink]

Well yeah Ink, if your trained its just easier, knowing which areas are vulnerable in the human body. My point is that you don't need a gun if you really want to kill someone. You out of all people on this board probably understands this the best.

 

this is what the difference is

training gives you the ability to NOT have to kill....whereas if you are not trained you will kill without meaning to.

not sure if I am explaining properly

in other words say its just a typical bar fight...not combat or someone breaking into the house....a bar fight...the guy with training such as a Marine whatever......Training......h e will know how much force or when to "stop" or like you say know what parts of the body will kill faster....someone who is not trained will just go for broke say to speak and not know when to stop or what to avoid to NOT kill the guy.

training gives that person the Ability to take down an enemy and NOT kill them.

thats the difference IMO

[grizz441]

One more point about the idea that these people will find ways to acquire illegal weapons to aid their rampages. Are fully-automatic weapons (registered after 1986) illegal? Why are fully-automatic weapons not showing up at the sites of these rampages?

Shida- I appreciate it, sir.

Mtn- Yes, solving the drunk driving issue would save far more people than solving the magazine size argument. But the solution would be at the cost of much more liberty.

Joey, I'm not saying they will get their hands on illegal weapons I'm saying they will kill as many people as they can by any means possible if they are crazy enough.  What's to stop someone from driving a semi truck 50 mph into a New York City crosswalk and killing dozens?  Or training to be a bus driver and driving off a bridge?  The options are limitless if you use your imagination.

[TonyJoey]

Joey, I'm not saying they will get their hands on illegal weapons I'm saying they will kill as many people as they can by any means possible if they are crazy enough.  What's to stop someone from driving a semi truck 50 mph into a New York City crosswalk and killing dozens?  Or training to be a bus driver and driving off a bridge?  The options are limitless if you use your imagination.

By that logic, why are guns banned on airplanes? Since terrorists will inevitably think of other ways to wreak havoc, what's the point in not letting everyone bring guns on planes? 

[grizz441]

I feel like you are just practicing your debating skills now with silly points like that.  Good fights, gotta run.  

[TonyJoey]

Actually, at this point I'm just recycling posts I've made responding to the same arguments made by others. The fact that people will find other ways to wreak havoc is no reason not to impose a law to limit one common avenue of attack. 

[4Prop]

it'll all blow over..and faster then that Traygone guy to. probably with 0 changes being made to weapons laws. everytime there is multiple people killed from guns everyone is up in arms about it. but what we never care to talk about is all the people that die in car crashes every day,stabbings,and even electricution from your moms toaster.

the true meaning of assault weapon-A genuine assault weapon, as opposed to a legal definition, is a hand-held, selective fire weapon, which means it's capable of firing in either an automatic or a semiautomatic mode depending on the position of a selector switch. chances are in your life you will never shoot an accual assault weapon, its just a media term trying to scare people.
Remember this is the same America that was up in arms about a black teenager being killed by a mexican and calling it a national tragedy.isnt that an every day occurence?


                                                                                                In memory of Trayvon "Skittles" Martin
                                                                                                             February 5, 1995 - February 26, 2012

[guncrasher]

(Image removed from quote.)

weird how the biggest massacres have happened on the battlefield when everyone had guns.



semp