Colorado Gun Demand Jumps 41%

[dunnrite]

He's just trying to play words to fit some agenda.  Practicing for his interview with the DNC. 

[Puma44]

[guncrasher]

I misspoke. What I should have said is that nobody should consider Holder or his flunkies as heroes for their implamentation and later bungling of Fast and Furious.

I totally agree with you. 


semp

[Widewing]

no,  see guns don't kill people,  people kill people.   where the gun came from is irrelevant, the criminal would have gotten it from a different place.


semp

You're using circular logic.... You're making assumptions.... You're drawing conclusions where there exists no evidence to support said conclusion.... In other words, you're full of baloney.

You cannot say that the killer would have obtained another weapon. You can't know that even if he had, whether or not that weapon would be as lethal as a 7.62mm rifle (a pistol round would not penetrate a ballistic vest). In short, you know nothing beyond the facts and the facts are that the weapon (likely illegally) provided by ATF was used to kill the Border Patrol Officer....

[TonyJoey]

You're using circular logic.... You're making assumptions.... You're drawing conclusions where there exists no evidence to support said conclusion.... In other words, you're full of baloney.

You cannot say that the killer would have obtained another weapon. You can't know that even if he had, whether or not that weapon would be as lethal as a 7.62mm rifle (a pistol round would not penetrate a ballistic vest). In short, you know nothing beyond the facts and the facts are that the weapon (likely illegally) provided by ATF was used to kill the Border Patrol Officer....

Wait, so assuming criminals will get weapons if they want to, even if they are illegal, is circular logic? Nice to know.

[Reaper90]

(Image removed from quote.)

  puma, I've stolen that for future use.

[Vulcan]

A teenager killed eight people with a knife and wounded five more in northeast China after falling out with his girlfriend, state media say.

The teen killed two of her family members and six more people before fleeing, the state-run Legal Daily newspaper said. It reported he was caught, but did not describe the circumstances.

The official Xinhua News Agency said the attack took place Wednesday night (local time) in Liaoning province. Media said the 17-year-old suspect is from Fushun city and his surname is Li. The attack happened in Yongling town.

Police in Xinbin county, which oversees the town, declined to comment.

Violent crimes are growing more common in China. There was a string of knife attacks against schoolchildren across the country in early 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50.

- AP

[bmwgs]

You're using circular logic.... You're making assumptions.... You're drawing conclusions where there exists no evidence to support said conclusion.... In other words, you're full of baloney.

You cannot say that the killer would have obtained another weapon. You can't know that even if he had, whether or not that weapon would be as lethal as a 7.62mm rifle (a pistol round would not penetrate a ballistic vest)[/color]. In short, you know nothing beyond the facts and the facts are that the weapon (likely illegally) provided by ATF was used to kill the Border Patrol Officer....

With all due respect Widewing, you might want to research this.  In many cases, yes they can.  I am not expressing an opinion on any other part of your statement, just the part in red.

 

Fred

[Widewing]

With all due respect Widewing, you might want to research this.  In many cases, yes they can.  I am not expressing an opinion on any other part of your statement, just the part in red.

 

Fred

Fred, the INS issues type IIIa vests. These should protect against all standard handgun rounds. You would need a type III or IV vest for protection against 7.62x39 FMJ ammo.

[Widewing]

Wait, so assuming criminals will get weapons if they want to, even if they are illegal, is circular logic? Nice to know.

Circular, because he returns to the same, badly flawed argument as the basis for his entire rant....

[bmwgs]

Fred, the INS issues type IIIa vests. These should protect against all standard handgun rounds. You would need a type III or IV vest for protection against 7.62x39 FMJ ammo.

You are correct,  they should protect against all standard pistol rounds, but you will find no ballistic vest manufacturer that will state their vests are 100% bullet proof, there are just to many variables.  For example one Teflon coated pistol round will pretty much makes any vest without a trauma plate worthless, and they are not that hard to come by.  I was not trying to get into any real debate here, I was just responding to your generalized statement "a pistol round would not penetrate a ballistic vest" when in fact they have.

Fred

[Puma44]

puma, I've stolen that for future use.

Please do.  I stole it from someone else. 

[guncrasher]

You're using circular logic.... You're making assumptions.... You're drawing conclusions where there exists no evidence to support said conclusion.... In other words, you're full of baloney.

You cannot say that the killer would have obtained another weapon. You can't know that even if he had, whether or not that weapon would be as lethal as a 7.62mm rifle (a pistol round would not penetrate a ballistic vest). In short, you know nothing beyond the facts and the facts are that the weapon (likely illegally) provided by ATF was used to kill the Border Patrol Officer....

isn't that what you are doing?  You are assuming that the criminal would have been unarmed if the operation hadn't been started.  or perhaps the only guns criminals have are those provided by the atf.

I am not going to argue that fast and Furious was a messed up op and people should have been terminated beginning with the one who authorized it. 

However only way holder would be responsible for the death would be if him or an agent personally handed the rifle to the criminal and told him where the officer was.

semp

[Melvin]

However only way holder would be responsible for the death would be if him or an agent personally handed the rifle to the criminal and told him where the officer was.

Wrong semp. Let's drop the whole "circular logic" thing for a minute and draw a straight line from the rifle that killed the agent (I actually had thought two agents died). This line goes from the gun to the shooter to the store it was bought at to the seller (ATF) to the seller's boss (Holder).

Basically Holder did hand the shooter that weapon and the outcome was tragic.


EDIT: basically what the ATF was trying to do was a "Bait Car" scenario. Put the object out there and snatch up the villains. Unfortunately one cannot turn the motor off and lock the doors on a gun. It was a ridiculous premise and I can't believe someone thought it would work.

[Slate]

Wrong semp. Let's drop the whole "circular logic" thing for a minute and draw a straight line from the rifle that killed the agent (I actually had thought two agents died). This line goes from the gun to the shooter to the store it was bought at to the seller (ATF) to the seller's boss (Holder).

Basically Holder did hand the shooter that weapon and the outcome was tragic.


EDIT: basically what the ATF was trying to do was a "Bait Car" scenario. Put the object out there and snatch up the villains. Unfortunately one cannot turn the motor off and lock the doors on a gun. It was a ridiculous premise and I can't believe someone thought it would work.

  This I agree with. Negligent Homicide is where your mistake kills. If a child gets hold of my gun and kills himself I am responsible for not taking precautions to prevent it even though I didn't pull the trigger. But the ATF did it on purpose! If you assist a criminal you have broken the law. Many in Govt. think they are above the law (and they are). Who has been brought up on charges for that fiasco? 
   If average Joe did it he would be in lockup awaiting trial.